# Abortions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691 "2016-03-31T03:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/21 "2016-03-31T14:40:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But this has long been the position advocated by a substantial part of the anti-abortion movement, since they think they’ll get more support for outlawing abortion if it doesn’t require jailing hundreds of thousands of women annually for terminating their pregnancy. I gotta say, somehow this was news to me, and I kinda appreciate Trump bringing the inconsistency to light. Some pro-life activist was on NPR this morning spelling out her organization’s position, which was essentially that women who get abortions are actually _victims_ of evil abortion doctors. It all sounded very patronizing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/22 "2016-03-31T14:48:39Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > If a woman even discusses it with her doctor, but doesn’t do it, maybe they could be charged with “conspiracy to commit murder,” since in most states, you don’t actually have to commit the crime for that charge to be leveled. > > BTW, the “in cases of rape” is a total red herring, especially now that Plan B is available. Most women who are raped, if they believe in abortion and contraception, are going to get Plan B, even if they don’t go to the police. Women who don’t are probably not going to for two reasons: 1) they are going to be very young and not aware of their options; 2) they are going to be against abortion. If they refuse Plan B because of their abortion stance, they aren’t going to want a more complicated procedure 12 weeks late. Women who, for whatever reason, don’t avail themselves of Plan B, and 12 weeks later present themselves for a “rape exception,” are probably going to be asked for a copy of their police report. If they don’t have one, they will probably be told that as a matter of law regarding the rape exception, they were not raped. > > But yeah, why not arrest and imprison every woman who has an abortion? > > Mainly because that’s a lot of women. There will be a prison over-crowding crisis, and because of the age of the women arrested, probably also a childcare crisis. The average number of abortions per provider is probably pretty high-- very high as a percentage of all abortions, there are so few providers left in the country (ironically, there’d be more if it were completely illegal, I bet), but the number per woman is probably less than 2. There are woman who have had more than one, but not many. And if every woman who had one ended up in prison, there’d be even fewer women who had more than one. You have a woman eligible for prison for nearly every abortion provided. > > You will need prison space for approximately 1,000,000 more inmates. If you want to sentence them like any murderer, ie, say 40-life for second degree murder, with double time for good behavior, so the possibility of being out in 20, that’s a lot of women in prison. Good luck with that. > > So you see the impracticality of it. You pretty much have to figure out some way to define women out of being murderers, or lose the rhetoric. We could get the Mexicans to build the prisons… and pay for it, too!!! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/23 "2016-03-31T14:52:14Z")
Trump did manage to demonstrate the bankruptcy of the pro-life side. If abortion is a crime, who is the criminal? No criminal, no crime. It also shows how we treat abortion differently than other medical issues, which is why I’m always skeptical when pro-choicers say, “it’s about women’s health”. If it was, we’d look at it like any other medical procedure. We don’t. We’re perfectly happy to throw women into prison for “doctor shopping” to illegally acquire pain pills. So to the extent abortion is illegal(and under certain circumstances it is already, even in blue states), a woman who searches far and wide to find a doctor willing to do it, let’s call this doctor Bermit Frosnell just for the sake of argument, is criminally complicit. Despite how I bash abortion a lot, I do believe it should be between a woman and her doctor in the first trimester. After that, it should be restricted, and as with any other restriction, doctors and patients that conspire to get around it should be criminally culpable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/24 "2016-03-31T15:00:22Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > There’s a logical inconsistency in there… > > This is not about whether abortion SHOULD be illegal, whether it “right” or when it should be done. > > What if it was phrased instead as… > > It’s illegal for men over 30 to ride in a taxi. > As a 40+ male I then take a ride in a taxi > Why is it ok that the taxi driver gets punished and I don’t? > > Wouldn’t it be more logical that I, as the one asking for a ride, also face some sort of punishment for committing what I know to be a crime? But the laws were not written like that. It was: It’s illegal for taxi drivers to give rides to men over 30. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/25 "2016-03-31T15:08:55Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > BTW, the “in cases of rape” is a total red herring, especially now that Plan B is available. Most women who are raped, if they believe in abortion and contraception, are going to get Plan B, even if they don’t go to the police. Women who don’t are probably not going to for two reasons: 1) they are going to be very young and not aware of their options; 2) they are going to be against abortion. If they refuse Plan B because of their abortion stance, they aren’t going to want a more complicated procedure 12 weeks late. Women who, for whatever reason, don’t avail themselves of Plan B, and 12 weeks later present themselves for a “rape exception,” are probably going to be asked for a copy of their police report. If they don’t have one, they will probably be told that as a matter of law regarding the rape exception, they were not raped. Plan B is something that is available, but still there are hurdles. [Here’s one article with some roadblocks](http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/10/06/top-5-roadblocks-to-plan-b-access/), including misinformed pharmacy workers, it being out of stock, and the cost. None of those sound like huge hurdles, but the pill needs to be taken within 72 hours, so any extra hoops to jump through makes it harder for the woman and less likely she’ll get it in time. Especially for a woman who has just gone through the trauma of rape and is having a difficult time as it is. There is also misinformation about the pill, with many thinking that it is an abortion pill instead of basically being a stronger birth control pill that is just taken after the fact. Someone could be for birth control and against abortion and not want the Plan B pill since they think it causes an abortion. Also, is there anywhere now that has the “rape exception” as part of the law? And does a police report need to be shown? A large number of rapes are never reported for various reasons, and I can imagine a number of women don’t report and then find out later that they are pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/26 "2016-03-31T15:18:43Z")
Why don’t we make this less complicated: Abortion is already illegal under certain circumstances. If a woman knowingly seeks an illegal abortion, is she criminally responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/27 "2016-03-31T15:58:56Z")
I have to agree with the OP. It seems to me that Trump’s original position makes more sense than his amended position. Like the OP, I am pro-choice. I think abortions should be legal. But if abortions were illegal, I don’t see why a woman who chooses to have one should be immune from criminal charges. It seems to me that the woman who chooses to have an abortion is just as guilty as the doctor who performs it. It appears to me that this distinction is just a political issue rather than a moral one. Pro-life advocates are okay with singling out doctors who perform abortions but they know if they extended the liability to women who receive abortions they’d lose too many votes. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/28 "2016-03-31T16:01:24Z")
What if a doctor gave herself an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/29 "2016-03-31T16:35:40Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > What if a doctor gave herself an abortion? Or the woman who isn’t a doctor? It isn’t a very complicated procedure, and women were known to self abort in the past when it was illegal. If we prosecute the abortion provider and not the woman who obtained an abortion, what do we do with women who punch themselves in the stomach or fall down stairs or drink raw milk or douche with Lysol? Banning abortion doctors will pretty much ensure these behaviors become commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/30 "2016-03-31T16:59:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Or the woman who isn’t a doctor? It isn’t a very complicated procedure, and women were known to self abort in the past when it was illegal. > > If we prosecute the abortion provider and not the woman who obtained an abortion, what do we do with women who punch themselves in the stomach or fall down stairs or drink raw milk or douche with Lysol? Banning abortion doctors will pretty much ensure these behaviors become commonplace. Yup, and when pressed on this by the interview, the woman I mentioned earlier hand-waved it all away by insisting that we’d get pregnant women the help they needed (as in, counseling/aid/adoption servers). Because the pro-life crowd has been sooo supportive of women’s support services in the past :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/31 "2016-03-31T19:06:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the laws were not written like that. It was: > > It’s illegal for taxi drivers to give rides to men over 30. But that leaves unresolved the issue of a 30+ man, say, finding an abandoned taxi and driving **himself** somewhere in it. Is that illegal, or not? (Analogy is, as **DrCube** notes, with women self-administering abortions by procuring abortifacients, or the infamous coathanger technique, or whatever.) If the point of the law is to ensure that men over 30 don’t ride in taxis at all, because we think that a man over 30 riding in a taxi is intrinsically a bad thing that ought to be avoided, then it doesn’t make sense to leave a loophole where it’s perfectly legal for a man over 30 to ride in a taxi as long as somebody **else** isn’t driving it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/32 "2016-03-31T19:29:04Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > Read the OP. > > Dems and Reps are ripping the position that women should be punished for getting abortions, if abortions were illegal. If a woman chooses to get an abortion, who’s responsible? Regardless of legality. It’s the woman choice either way. Taking your OP at face value: the woman might “choose” all she wants but someone has to actually perform the abortion, if abortion is illegal the one performing the act is the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/33 "2016-03-31T19:31:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But that leaves unresolved the issue of a 30+ man, say, finding an abandoned taxi and driving **himself** somewhere in it. Is that illegal, or not? > > (Analogy is, as **DrCube** notes, with women self-administering abortions by procuring abortifacients, or the infamous coathanger technique, or whatever.) > > If the point of the law is to ensure that men over 30 don’t ride in taxis at all, because we think that a man over 30 riding in a taxi is intrinsically a bad thing that ought to be avoided, then it doesn’t make sense to leave a loophole where it’s perfectly legal for a man over 30 to ride in a taxi as long as somebody **else** isn’t driving it. Well, and suppose in this world most people don’t drive, other than professional drivers, so the guy who gets into a cab to drive himself is doing something dangerous-- he’s not licensed to drive, and doesn’t really know how. The loophole is bad because it encourages 30+ men to do something that can harm them. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/34 "2016-03-31T20:22:56Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Taking your OP at face value: the woman might “choose” all she wants but someone has to actually perform the abortion, if abortion is illegal the one performing the act is the doctor. Historically, that was the case at least in the US. When abortion was illegal, doctors were sometimes prosecuted, but my recollection is that no one has ever found a case of a woman who received an abortion being prosecuted for it. It’s analogous to a regime where the sellers of illegal drugs are prosecuted but not the buyers. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/35 "2016-03-31T20:34:09Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > If a woman chooses to have an abortion, and it’s legal, it’s her choice. > > If a woman chooses to have an abortion, and it’s illegal, she’s a victim. > > I’m pro-choice, and even I see a severe inconsistency here. If a woman choose to have an abortion, its her choice, either way. She’s never a victim, except maybe of circumstance. I think the logic is that if illegal, the woman is a victim of unjust laws. This has nothing to do with the pregnancy, she’s a victim in the same way that people arrested for the laughable non-crime of smoking pot are victims of an overly harsh and prudish justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/36 "2016-03-31T20:42:14Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think the logic is that if illegal, the woman is a victim of unjust laws. This has nothing to do with the pregnancy, she’s a victim in the same way that people arrested for the laughable non-crime of smoking pot are victims of an overly harsh and prudish justice system. Both examples may be unfortunate, unjust or unfair, depending on one’s point of view. But it’s a stretch to call either person a victim. To me, the word victim expresses someone who suffered some sort of damage due to actions beyond their control. Someone smoking pot knows beforehand it is illegal, just as someone having sex knows the potential consequences beforehand, and presumably the laws surrounding contraception and abortion. It seems to me fair to say that one can be the victim of a robbery or natural disaster, for example, but not a victim of unfair laws. Perhaps I’m drawing to fine a point. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/37 "2016-03-31T20:43:11Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Historically, that was the case at least in the US. When abortion was illegal, doctors were sometimes prosecuted, but my recollection is that no one has ever found a case of a woman who received an abortion being prosecuted for it. It’s analogous to a regime where the sellers of illegal drugs are prosecuted but not the buyers. Or, according to the pro-life rhetoric, one where a hitman is prosecuted but not the person who hired him. ---
**Author:** ![fgh54645](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@fgh54645](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fgh54645)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/38 "2016-03-31T20:49:37Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > One thing I’m certain of: this thread will not get to the bottom of things and create any consensus. This issue is rife with inconsistencies and illogical conclusions no matter which side you are on. It gets worse the more strident you are one way or the other. And the political realities are only getting worse, as it’s just about impossible to be a pro-life democrat or a pro-choice republican. > > And looking for consistency or well thought-out positions from Trump is like looking for ethical behavior from Clinton. Wrong, it’s pretty simple. If abortion is murder, then the woman is a murderer. If a woman can be charged for a dui, she can be charged for murder (abortion). Not all blame goes to the bartender, in fact, most blame goes to the woman for making a conscious decision. The bartender never forced her to drink in the first place, same goes for the abortion doctor. Trump just inadvertently took the issue to its natural logical conclusion, the reason for the uneasy feelings is because the ‘pro-life movement’ knows their ‘abortion is murder’ position is a sham and is simply political posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/39 "2016-03-31T21:23:14Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think the logic is that if illegal, the woman is a victim of unjust laws. This has nothing to do with the pregnancy, she’s a victim in the same way that people arrested for the laughable non-crime of smoking pot are victims of an overly harsh and prudish justice system. That’s the same misinterpretation of the OP that I originally made (though I think in its own right it’s valid reasoning). But it turns out that what the OP was actually criticizing is the position that abortion should be criminalized (e.g., maintaining that abortion bans are **not** unjust) while simultaneously opposing criminal penalties for women who procure abortions. That position is essentially claiming that abortion is wrong and should be illegal but the only people who should be punished for it are the abortion providers. > [@Tom Tildrum](#): > > It’s analogous to a regime where the sellers of illegal drugs are prosecuted but not the buyers. Which, interestingly, is the reverse of most versions of decriminalizing prostitution: the “buyer” or john may still be liable to penalties but the “seller”, i.e., the prostitute, is not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691/40 "2016-03-31T21:44:48Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > One thing I’m certain of: this thread will not get to the bottom of things and create any consensus. This issue is rife with inconsistencies and illogical conclusions no matter which side you are on. It gets worse the more strident you are one way or the other. Based on this thread, I certainly see logical inconsistencies in the pro-life position, if women who seek an abortion are seen as victims. However, I think there is a perfectly consistent pro-choice position: 1. A woman has complete control over her body. 2. Abortion is a purely medical procedure, and regulated by health standards and physician trading requirements like any other procedure. 3. The physician provides the medical service to a patient, based on medical standards, just like any other medical procedure. 4. There are no laws which restrict access, other than purely medical standards just like other medical procedures (doctor must have appropriate training, facility must have appropriate equipment, etc to perform the procedure safely, just like any other procedure.) What is illogical about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortions/750691.md?page=3)