# About fucking time. The Sandy Hook families are suing Alex Jones for defamation **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612 "2018-04-18T03:05:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/1 "2018-04-18T03:05:22Z")
> **[Sandy Hook Parents Sue Alex Jones for Defamation (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/business/media/alex-jones-sandy-hook.html)** > > Mr. Jones and his conspiracy theory website Infowars have long claimed that the killing of 26 people at the Connecticut elementary school was a “giant hoax.” > [@](#): > > Three parents whose children were killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 filed a defamation lawsuit on Tuesday against Alex Jones, the right-wing conspiracy theorist who has long claimed the shooting was “completely fake” and a “giant hoax” perpetrated by opponents of the Second Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/2 "2018-04-18T03:19:28Z")
I hope they stomp him in the ground. That just makes me sick. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/3 "2018-04-18T04:17:21Z")
Wesley Clark, I can only believe that they have been collecting ‘evidence’ on Jones all of these years, proving defamation in a court of law is harder than just hearing crap on the radio (note: IANAL). My guess is that they waited until they had what they believe is an air-tight case so that Jones wil have no option but to put up (prove his contention, which is probably impossible (and ‘probably’ is looking for a flight out of town) or lose another chunk of whatever he’s collected from his minions. I could use the old, sneering adage “it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy”, but IMHO there is nothing nice about Mr. Jones and I hope he takes another whuppin’ in court. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/4 "2018-04-18T05:19:23Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Wesley Clark, I can only believe that they have been collecting ‘evidence’ on Jones all of these years, proving defamation in a court of law is harder than just hearing crap on the radio True, obviously, and I think they have a good chance at being able to do it. Even if you apply the most stringent possible test for defamation (the umbrella term which includes _both_ libel and slander), actual malice, I think [they’ll still be able to clear the bar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_malice): > [@](#): > > The existence of actual malice may be shown in many ways, as long as the claim is properly supported by admissible evidence.[7] Malice may be proved through any competent evidence, either direct or circumstantial. All of the relevant circumstances surrounding the transaction may be shown, provided they are not too remote, including threats, other defamatory statements, subsequent statements made by the defendant, any circumstances that indicate the existence of rivalry, ill will, or hostility between the parties, and **facts that tend to show a reckless disregard of the plaintiff’s rights on the part of the defendant**.[7] Jones knew that people had gone all the way to shooting up the pizza place featured in the [Pizzagate conspiracy theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzagate_conspiracy_theory) he peddled on his show, and here he is, peddling the conspiracy theory that these parents are all crisis actors, people putting on a fake show for the media as part of a sinister plot to destroy gun rights in this country as prelude to a globalist takeover. _That_ is reckless disregard. And they might not even have to clear that bar. The question is whether the plaintiffs are public figures. I don’t know if they are, and I think it’s a bit ambiguous: They’re connected to a famous tragedy, but they haven’t sought the spotlight the way David Hogg, for example, has. If they’re _not_ public figures, the bar for defamation becomes lower, and the plaintiffs’ cases become a lot easier. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/5 "2018-04-18T12:20:40Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I hope they stomp him in the ground. That just makes me sick. This. Under the circumstances it seems likely he’ll offer to settle out of court. I hope the Sandy Hook families choose not to do so, and instead shine an unpleasant, enduring spotlight on him in court, followed by an award of damages much bigger than his settlement offer. It’d be awfully hard on them, since it all revolves around the murder of their children - but if they can see it through, they will have done a public service. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/6 "2018-04-18T13:50:17Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > This. Under the circumstances it seems likely he’ll offer to settle out of court. I hope not as well. Depending on the venue rules, they might ask for $x but if the jury is incensed enough the award could be a lot higher. Money is nice, but it’s not going to be Jones’ money, it’ll be coming from his personal insurance policy most likely. This won’t affect him _at all_ in any meaningful way. But I wonder if they can also seek a non-monetary award, such as, “Jones has to shut the hell up about everything forever”. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/7 "2018-04-18T13:55:46Z")
I hope the remaining families join the suit and each gets awarded a large sum, like $10 million. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/8 "2018-04-18T14:07:15Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > This. Under the circumstances it seems likely he’ll offer to settle out of court. I hope the Sandy Hook families choose not to do so, and instead shine an unpleasant, enduring spotlight on him in court, followed by an award of damages much bigger than his settlement offer. It’d be awfully hard on them, since it all revolves around the murder of their children - but if they can see it through, they will have done a public service. It is impossible to believe that any jury will not find for them in a huge way. There has probably never been a more sympathetic complainant. I hope they take him down hard. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/9 "2018-04-18T14:19:06Z")
Factual question: Is he being sued for defaming the families of the dead children, or the dead children themselves? Or both? Is it legally possible to defame the dead? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/10 "2018-04-18T14:20:01Z")
I think Alex Jones is an idiot, but I wonder how far this suit will get. IANAL, but doesn’t a defamation lawsuit have to show actual damage. One man yelling “crisis actors” compared to the entire rest of the American media telling the truth doesn’t seem to me to cause any harm to reputation. And doesn’t entertainment media enjoy a privileged position effectively shielding him from claims of defamation. I hope the families prevail, but I just dont see it. mc ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/11 "2018-04-18T14:33:32Z")
IANAL but I hope the law is that to be guilty of defamation, a person would need to know there was a lack of evidence against those defamed. Jones, as I understand it, could point to existing evidence that a reasonable person could concur would appear on its face to cast aspersions on those defamed. Jones’ defense then would be to say Look here, I have reasonable cause for believing these people did what I said they did, and as a protected citizen, I would hope that the conviction need not be on whether the data was later found factually correct, but whether a reasonable person might believe it is plausible. To take it to an extreme, if Leonard Pelletier is exonerated, does he have a defamation case against everyone who believed the evidence against him was compelling, and publicly said so? A defamation case should not hinge on whether you were wrong, but rather whether you knew you were wrong and defamed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/12 "2018-04-18T14:46:06Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > IANAL but I hope the law is that to be guilty of defamation, a person would need to know there was a lack of evidence against those defamed. Jones, as I understand it, could point to existing evidence that **a reasonable person** could concur would appear on its face to cast aspersions on those defamed. > > Jones’ defense then would be to say Look here, I have **reasonable cause** for believing these people did what I said they did, and as a protected citizen, I would hope that the conviction need not be on whether the data was later found factually correct, but whether **a reasonable person** might believe it is plausible. A reasonable person believes that the kids killed in a school, and their parents, were actually crisis actors and nobody died at Sandy Hook? Despite a parade of local police, paramedics, hospital personnel, media, neighbors, etc. who actually saw the aftermath of the shootings including dead and wounded children? There aren’t enough :rolleyes: for that in the entire universe! [Incredulous reaction off]Yes, I presume that would be his defense. I think we can be fairly certain it isn’t going to work, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/13 "2018-04-18T14:56:10Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And doesn’t entertainment media enjoy a privileged position effectively shielding him from claims of defamation. Reading the [About Alex Jones Show](https://www.infowars.com/about-alex-jones-show/) page on his website, I get the sense that he presents his show and himself not as entertainment but as a news show. “The Alex Jones Show is now syndicated on over 160 stations across the country and routinely breaks huge stories in addition to featuring some of the most insightful and news making guests from across the world.” “By establishing a team of news reporters who provide cutting edge analysis and on the ground high tech breaking coverage, [Infowars.com](http://Infowars.com) continually dominates the news coverage while wearing our bias - the truth - openly and proudly on our sleeve.” “Alex’s mainstay is his nationally syndicated news-talk show produced from his studio in Austin and broadcast on the Genesis Communication Network, based in Minnesota.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/14 "2018-04-18T14:59:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Factual question: Is he being sued for defaming the families of the dead children, or the dead children themselves? Or both? Is it legally possible to defame the dead? I’m not a US lawyer, but generally speaking under English common law it is not possible to defame dead people. However, statements _about_ dead people can damage the reputations of the living. My assumption is that the defamation claims are brought on behalf of the living – the families of the dead children. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/15 "2018-04-18T15:23:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not a US lawyer, but generally speaking under English common law it is not possible to defame dead people. > > However, statements _about_ dead people can damage the reputations of the living. > > My assumption is that the defamation claims are brought on behalf of the living – the families of the dead children. The “parents” who are accused of making up this whole thing about having dead children are the ones being defamed. He’s calling them liars and frauds. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/16 "2018-04-18T15:25:58Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I think Alex Jones is an idiot, but I wonder how far this suit will get. IANAL, but doesn’t a defamation lawsuit have to show actual damage. One man yelling “crisis actors” compared to the entire rest of the American media telling the truth doesn’t seem to me to cause any harm to reputation. And doesn’t entertainment media enjoy a privileged position effectively shielding him from claims of defamation. > > I hope the families prevail, but I just dont see it. > > mc The privilege goes the other way: a public figure, someone who willingly courts fame, must prove “actual malice” if _they_ wish to pursue a defamation case against someone _they_ claim has defamed them. Thing is, the Sandy Hook parents are not public figures in this sense, so the “actual malice” test probably doesn’t apply to claims brought by them (though this sort of thing varies by state, so who knows). Even assuming “actual malice” is the standard, it is arguably one Mr. Jones’ statements can meet: it is demonstrated by a ‘reckless disregard’ for the truth, not taking even the minimal care a reasonable person ought to take to ensure the statements were true. There are also defenses against libel, like “fair comment” on public events, appropriate where the targets of the statements are ordinary folks and not celebrities, ordinary folk who get caught up in public events. The Sandy Hook massacre is clearly a public event, so “fair comment” ought to apply. However, “fair comment” only applies to opinions. Even the most outrageous opinions about public events are shielded … but it doesn’t apply to outrageously untrue _facts_. Under this defense, you can say whatever you **think** about events, however offensive (“those kids who were shot, I think they had it coming”). You cannot make up **facts** about events (“those kids were not shot, the parents just invented it all”). As for damages, I understand that yes some must be proved before an award of “presumed” damages (for humiliation and the like) may be made. Evidence that these families have been harassed and stalked by crazy people who believe the lies spread by Mr. Jones, which I understand actually happened, would probably suffice. Usual disclaimer: I’m not a US lawyer and certainly not one from the whatever state this is to be litigated in. So take the above with a big grain of salt. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/17 "2018-04-18T15:27:03Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > The “parents” who are accused of making up this whole thing about having dead children are the ones being defamed. He’s calling them liars and frauds. Yup, exactly. So the fact that dead people can’t be defamed isn’t an issue here. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/18 "2018-04-18T19:40:43Z")
I am not a regular viewer but occasionally have watched clips. IIRC, he presents a lot of his “info” with wiggle room using phrases like “I don’t know, but these are unanswered questions”. Does that help in defending this in court? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/19 "2018-04-18T19:47:50Z")
I would hope it wouldn’t help in defending this in court. Imagine being one of those parents; your child was murdered at the age of six or seven along with a bunch of his or her classmates by a maniac and now these idiots are denying that this happened and that your child never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612/20 "2018-04-18T19:53:11Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > I am not a regular viewer but occasionally have watched clips. IIRC, he presents a lot of his “info” with wiggle room using phrases like “I don’t know, but these are unanswered questions”. Does that help in defending this in court? Heh, it’s an old technique, “just asking questions”. Sometimes abbreviated as “JAQing off”. 😃 > **[Just asking questions](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions)** > > Just asking questions (also known as JAQing off, or as emojis: "🤔🤔🤔"\[1\]) is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements. It shifts the burden of... Will it work? My guess is that it will not. A court is, I imagine, going to look at the communication as a whole and attempt to determine if the person making the statement is _really_ “asking a question” or simply using the turn of phrase as a means of making an assertion. The issue being how a reasonable viewer would interpret it. Again, I’m not a US lawyer, so who knows … [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-fucking-time-the-sandy-hook-families-are-suing-alex-jones-for-defamation/812612.md?page=2)