# About Lies and Liars **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 4, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048 "2012-06-04T16:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/1 "2012-06-04T16:12:19Z")
OK, now I’m confused. Legitimately confused. Where does this currently stand? I was central to a kefluffle some time back, when I was openly called a liar in GD. Repeatedly. Couldn’t believe it, was sure that one of the Luminous Ones would be right at hand to put the kibosh down. A stern scolding in no uncertain terms! But no. The rules had changed and, once agan, the memo had not arrived OK, so the rules changed. Previously one could say that a post was a lie, but not actually declare the poster was a liar. And then, it appears that it was OK to say a poster was a liar. And then that changed back again? I have some minor skill with words, it would present no problem to observe the protocols and still get my opinion across. But I require some definition. What are the current, correct guidelines? i understand that the issue is tricky, pitfalls and pratfalls abound, and have no intention of arguing the point, I’m sure its difficult enough to establish useful and fair rules. So, is this still how it stands? One can declare a post a lie, but not state, in so many words, that the poster is a liar? This unworthy one seeks guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/2 "2012-06-04T16:19:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, now I’m confused. Legitimately confused. Where does this currently stand? > > I was central to a kefluffle some time back, when I was openly called a liar in GD. Repeatedly. Couldn’t believe it, was sure that one of the Luminous Ones would be right at hand to put the kibosh down. A stern scolding in no uncertain terms! But no. The rules had changed and, once agan, the memo had not arrived Did you report the incident to the moderators? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/3 "2012-06-04T16:22:54Z")
Link? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/4 "2012-06-04T16:25:28Z")
You’re describing the rule correctly: you can say that a statement is a lie, but you can’t say another poster is lying. You were describing statements as lies, but I asked you to back off a bit because you were doing so in a way that was overly personal. To wit: > [@Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/469): > > Lies, Counselor. You’re posting lies. Simple enough for you? Not too flowery, I hope. Lies. > [@Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/499): > > The problem with Fox News is they lie. And pious protestations of liberal hypocrisy from someone who knowingly posts lies is of less consequence than a butterfly’s fart. The decision was reinforced by the fact that your tone in other posts was getting insulting: > [@Voter ID Laws: Necessary to combat rampant fraud or subtle subjugation of the Democratic demographic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/voter-id-laws-necessary-to-combat-rampant-fraud-or-subtle-subjugation-of-the-democratic-demographic/622971/471): > > You’re \*adorable \*when you pretend to be stupid, and you just can’t quite grasp what I’m saying. Puppies and kittens must line up for post-graduate work in cute. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/5 "2012-06-04T16:30:28Z")
This was some time back **Czarc**. A year, two? IIRC, I did not, I didn’t think it necessary, because it was so blatant and repetitious. I mean, the guy was calling me a liar every third word! But that’s neither here nor there, really. My question has to do with the rules, all of that is merely background. Come to think on it, I don’t think I’ve ever reported a post. And just to be utterly clear: I am not implying any criticism of the Luminous Ones or the manner in which they approach a difficult and thankless task. But I don’t know exactly where the line is, and would like to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/6 "2012-06-04T16:34:37Z")
From the rules: _Questioning or disputing the accuracy of another poster’s statements–“I don’t think that’s right”, “That’s incorrect”, “You are mistaken”, or even “That’s not true”-- is what Great Debates is all about. However, questioning the intent of another poster in making an arguably false statement–e.g., “You are a liar”, “You are lying”, “That is a lie”, “That’s not true and you darned well know it isn’t true”–is crossing the line into attacking the other poster_ Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/7 "2012-06-04T16:40:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re describing the rule correctly: you can say that a statement is a lie, but you can’t say another poster is lying. You were describing statements as lies, but I asked you to back off a bit because you were doing so in a way that was overly personal. To wit: > > The decision was reinforced by the fact that your tone in other posts was getting insulting: Ah! So no actual change has occurred. Good, that clarifies. Fair enough. I understand that the presumption of dignity is the gift we give each to the other, and shall endeavor to preserve that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/8 "2012-06-04T16:42:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This was some time back **Czarc**. A year, two? IIRC, I did not, I didn’t think it necessary, because it was so blatant and repetitious. I mean, the guy was calling me a liar every third word! Of course it was(and still is) necessary. Back when I was a moderator we didn’t have software that alerted us when certain words and/or phrases popped up, and I’m betting they still don’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/9 "2012-06-04T16:55:14Z")
Well, yeah, but in that instance, it wouldn’t have done any good, unbeknownst to me, he was entirely within his rights. I just didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/10 "2012-06-04T17:51:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re adorable when you pretend to be stupid, and you just can’t quite grasp what I’m saying. Puppies and kittens must line up for post-graduate work in cute. He said the poster was PRETENDING to be stupid, and that he was in fact ADORABLE. Where’s the insult? Sounds like a compliment to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/11 "2012-06-04T18:02:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > He said the poster was PRETENDING to be stupid, and that he was in fact ADORABLE. Where’s the insult? Sounds like a compliment to me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/12 "2012-06-05T04:45:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re describing the rule correctly: you can say that a statement is a lie, but you can’t say another poster is lying. I don’t understand how that statement is consistent with the rule I quoted in post #6. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/13 "2012-06-05T05:20:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand how that statement is consistent with the rule I quoted in post #6. What am I missing? Isn’t it obvious? Marley was lying! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/14 "2012-06-05T15:07:58Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Isn’t it obvious? Marley was lying! You lie! Oh, wait. You weren’t making a State of the Union address? I take that back, then. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/15 "2012-06-05T15:14:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand how that statement is consistent with the rule I quoted in post #6. What am I missing? “That is a lie” doesn’t make a distinction between ‘the statement is incorrect’ (OK) and ‘you are deliberately being untruthful’ (not OK). So people who say “That’s a lie” often get a mod note and a reminder that you can say a statement is incorrect but can’t accuse the poster of lying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/16 "2012-06-05T15:31:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “That is a lie” doesn’t make a distinction between ‘the statement is incorrect’ (OK) and ‘you are deliberately being untruthful’ (not OK). So people who say “That’s a lie” often get a mod note and a reminder that you can say a statement is incorrect but can’t accuse the poster of lying. Still confused. You said to OP described the rule correctly when he posted this: > [@OP](#): > > OK, so the rules changed. Previously one could say that a post was a lie, but not actually declare the poster was a liar. And then, it appears that it was OK to say a poster was a liar. And then that changed back again? Emphasis added. Note that he is saying it was never against the rules to say that a post was a lie. However, the rule says you cannot post: > [@](#): > > That is a lie Which is exactly the same as saying “that post is a lie”. So, what is it? Can one say “that post is a lie” or “that is a lie”? Because that is what the OP is asking. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/17 "2012-06-05T15:43:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > However, the rule says you cannot post: > > Which is exactly the same as saying “that post is a lie”. > > So, what is it? Can one say “that post is a lie” or “that is a lie”? Because that is what the OP is asking. I will discuss this with the other mods to make sure we’re all on the same page with this. But like I said, the central issue here is that you can call a statement a lie in disputing its accuracy, but you can’t say another poster is lying or a liar as a comment on that poster or his/her motivations. So “That is a lie” would be allowed as a comment on a particular statement and I think “That post is a lie” would generally not be allowed because it would be interpreted as a comment on the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/18 "2012-06-05T15:53:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I will discuss this with the other mods to make sure we’re all on the same page with this. But like I said, the central issue here is that you can call a statement a lie in disputing its accuracy, but you can’t say another poster is lying or a liar as a comment on that poster or his/her motivations. So “That is a lie” would be allowed as a comment on a particular statement and I think “That post is a lie” would generally not be allowed because it would be interpreted as a comment on the poster. Might it not be better to disallow any variation of “That is a lie”(which pretty much points to the issuer of the statement as a liar), in favor of “That statement is inaccurate(or wrong)”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/19 "2012-06-05T15:54:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I will discuss this with the other mods to make sure we’re all on the same page with this. But like I said, the central issue here is that you can call a statement a lie in disputing its accuracy, but you can’t say another poster is lying or a liar as a comment on that poster or his/her motivations. So “That is a lie” would be allowed as a comment on a particular statement and I think “That post is a lie” would generally not be allowed because it would be interpreted as a comment on the poster. OK. Under that interpretation, I would say the OP is not describing the rule correctly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048/20 "2012-06-05T16:18:23Z")
The whole issue of accusations of lying in Great Debates originated from the TM, (not the staff), in regards to insults in that forum. There was a period where several variations of accusations of lies were permitted as the normal back-and-forth of debate. The issue was raised as a bad exception to the insult rule and the matter was argued out for a few days. The result was that one may not say another poster has lied and one may not say that another poster is a liar. Statements that some third party not participating on the board has lied are still permitted. It gets ticky, of course, when Poster A quotes or references Entity X with a statement and Poster B replies “That is a lie” without being sufficiently clear that the accusation is directed against Entity X’s statement and not Poster A. We tend to err on the side of good order, (since accusations of lies are fighting words), and will generally tell Poster B to back away from the accusation. While the explicit rule prohibits an open accusation regarding Poster A’s behavior, the broader rule about not being a jerk indicates that skirting the rule for the purpose of riling up one’s opponent, (or strongly suggesting that one’s opponent has willingly repeated a known lie from another entity), is also prohibited. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-lies-and-liars/624048.md?page=2)