# About Persephone and Dex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688 "2003-07-07T02:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DK2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aca169/32.png) [@DK2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DK2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/141 "2003-07-07T20:46:40Z")
Looks like my prediction was correct. Where’s my 50 bucks? ---
**Author:** ![DK2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aca169/32.png) [@DK2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DK2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/142 "2003-07-07T20:53:53Z")
Fuck, sorry about that I only meant to post it once. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/143 "2003-07-07T23:50:43Z")
**SuaSponte** , I’m afraid you’re missing another point, one which I brought up in **Dex’s** original pit thread, and repeated here (and which **TruePisces** has echoed). What **Dex** did in his Pit OP was state things which were not true _as if they **were** true_. He not only did not have complete information (and I’m not going to start that round-robin again), but he _made up information out of whole cloth_. > [@](#): > > OK, so we’ve got a Doper who is bragging about how she was partying at a DopeFest when the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children called that they had taken her children Where, in **Persephone’s** MPSIMS OP, was she bragging about anything other than how great her friends were for helping her out in a hellish situation? She certainly wasn’t bragging about her own actions. > [@](#): > > Now, government agencies do not take children from their homes unless the environment is unsafe – dangerous, we’re talking, dangerous to the children. Rat and cockroach infestation, broken glass, vomit in the halls, unflushed shit in the toilets, that’s pretty commonplace in the inner city and that’s not sufficient to get children pulled out of a home. So we’re talking about something that must have been pretty fuckin’ bad. He’s assuming. He wasn’t there, he doesn’t know. **Persephone** chose to not share the details of the condition of her house, nor CPS’s criteria. **Dex** may have related experience, but he doesn’t have _first-hand_ knowledge in this particular case. What he says is inflammatory speculation. > [@](#): > > Seems to me that she’d already made it very clear that her Doper friends are more important to her than her children. He’s entitled to his opinion here, I suppose, but it’s still a low blow, and unbecoming in light of the fact that he assumed all of the above. You’re a lawyer, **Sua**. Would that kind of evidence be accepted in court? Or would it be tossed out on the grounds that it was speculation? That’s my beef. Not that the popular **Persephone** got pitted, not that she didn’t tell the whole story, not that the original MPSIMS thread wasn’t about what the Pit thread was about. My beef is about the flagrant disregard for truth, and for speculation-being-presented-as-truth being accepted in the name of righteous indignation. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/144 "2003-07-08T00:33:06Z")
**DAVE** : [Here](http://www.mfia.state.mi.us/olmweb/ex/cfp/715-2.pdf) is an introduction into the standards for removal of children. **Dex** was correct in his assertion that the government does not just remove children on a whim, but rather there has to be something that IMMEDIATELY THREATENS THE CHILD’S HEALTH OR WELFARE. Of course, **Dex** didn’t know the precise details of the removal in this case, but he certainly wasn’t making shit up out of whole cloth and definitely wasn’t flagrantly disregarding the truth. To read his post that way is unfair to him, and I personally think you owe him an apology. Sure there was speculation, but I never once saw somebody challenge the fact that the children shouldn’t have been removed. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/145 "2003-07-08T01:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DAVEW0071 \* > \*\* > What **Dex** did in his Pit OP was state things which were not true _as if they **were** true_. > > He not only did not have complete information (and I’m not going to start that round-robin again), but he _made up information out of whole cloth_. > > Where, in **Persephone’s** MPSIMS OP, was she bragging about anything other than how great her friends were for helping her out in a hellish situation? She certainly wasn’t bragging about her own actions. My take on it was that he took what \*\*Cristi[/c] DID say and used a LOT of hyperbole to make his statement. > [@](#): > > He’s assuming. He wasn’t there, he doesn’t know. **Persephone** chose to not share the details of the condition of her house, nor CPS’s criteria. **Dex** may have related experience, but he doesn’t have _first-hand_ knowledge in this particular case. What he says is inflammatory speculation. Ya know what Dave? You weren’t there either! So, in other words, your outrage seems to be based on the fact that you like Persephone. > [@](#): > > He’s entitled to his opinion here, I suppose, but it’s still a low blow, and unbecoming in light of the fact that he assumed all of the above. I don’t agree in the least little bit. As a for instance here, I’ve seen people pit other users here for the most ridiculous things without checking to see if PERHAPS they had the facts wrong or maybe misinterpreted what the original op said. > [@](#): > > You’re a lawyer, **Sua**. Would that kind of evidence be accepted in court? Or would it be tossed out on the grounds that it was speculation? This isn’t a court. > [@](#): > > That’s my beef. Not that the popular **Persephone** got pitted, not that she didn’t tell the whole story, not that the original MPSIMS thread wasn’t about what the Pit thread was about. > > My beef is about the flagrant disregard for truth, and for speculation-being-presented-as-truth being accepted in the name of righteous indignation. \*\* Look. Do you REALLY think that ANYONE on this board has any conception of what the conditions of that house were? I do. I absolutely refuse to go into details anymore as the issue seems to be what Dex did rather than what Cristi did. Again, let me state something from the very bottom of my heart. You people have NO idea what went on in totality. I do. I’m not sure if I’m at liberty to say what conditions were really like. I talked to Cristi earlier today and pretty much blew her off as I was busy doing something else. Also, I’ve harped on this VERY DAMN subject to her for three years and this is the result. I found out about it ONLY after the initial call was made. Cristi knows my feelings for her and also knows that as soon as she finally gets her shit together we’ll most likely get together and have a few drinks and discuss the whole issue. You people second guessing things about what the actual situation was are never going to be satisfied. X ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/146 "2003-07-08T01:37:14Z")
And, of course, I managed to screw up my coding…sigh… ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/147 "2003-07-08T02:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > > 1. There are about 15 people, all told, who are both membrs of this board and privy to the whole story behind the incident that caused the sequence of posts leading to this situation. At the openly posted request of **Persephone** , they are not publicizing the details of private lives underlying it. But even sitting here several hundred miles from any site of action, I know enough, from what’s been said on open board, to see a scenario in which **Persephone** is not totally at fault for conditions leading to CPS intervention. (Note that that is not a total exoneration; she has publicly accepted some of the blame for it.) But the picture of unfit mother partying while her children rot in squalor that **Dex** ’s Pit thread painted is clearly not a totally accurate portrayal of what happened. Clearly not? How is it clear when only 15 people know the whole story? I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt here but so far I don’t see na excuse for the parents in anything that’s been made public. I can also see a scenario in which the mother is not totally at fault, but I can see plenty of scenarios in which she is at fault. I know people that when children had to be taken away from unfit parents and it’s no picnic for the kids. > [@](#): > > But he did not have the full story, and a little thought would have led him to realize that it was accessible to him. An e-mail between moderators, which I’m certain is common practice in dealing with board problems, saying, in effect, “What the @!##@ was **Persephone** thinking?!?”, would have given him that mysterious background and obviated the whole problem. C.K.D.H. didn’t know the whole story so it’s wrong of him to pit someone. OK. That works both ways. Since no one else knows the whole story it’s wrong for them to attack C.K.D.H. without attempting to get the whole story, e-mail him for info, etc. How many of the C.K.D.H. haters have done that? Do you think they were wrong too? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/148 "2003-07-08T02:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > He’s assuming. He wasn’t there, he doesn’t know. \*\*Persephone chose to not share the details of the condition of her house, nor CPS’s criteria. Dex may have related experience, but he doesn’t have first-hand knowledge in this particular case. What he says is inflammatory speculation. > > Ya know what Dave? You weren’t there either! So, in other words, your outrage seems to be based on the fact that you like Persephone. So you’re saying that if someone says “ **matt\_mcl** rapes his cats” amd another person says “ **matt\_mcl** doesn’t rape his cats,” they’re equivalently speculative, since the persons don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/149 "2003-07-08T02:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > You need to lurk a while longer before you come blasting in on unfamilar territory. Or at least get the facts right before you start telling other people what is right and what is wrong. What do you mean here? The mysterious facts that only 15 people in the world know? Or something else? Concerning your attitude of “only long-time posters are smart enough to be able to read and understand what’s posted at the message board”, I’ve got an opinion on that also, but I guess I’ll wait until I have more than a thousand posts to let you know what it is, so that you don’t waste your time having to read my impure newbie thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/150 "2003-07-08T02:11:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > So you’re saying that if someone says “ **matt\_mcl** rapes his cats” amd another person says “ **matt\_mcl** doesn’t rape his cats,” they’re equivalently speculative, since the persons don’t know? Oh come on! The real comparison is “animal control took away matt\_mcl’s cats for animal cruelty.” One guy says “he’s all better now so don’t get on his case” and the other guy says “well he must have done something bad in the first place.” ---
**Author:** ![tramp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@tramp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tramp)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/151 "2003-07-08T02:21:17Z")
Ziggy B… For a newbie I find your posts surprisingly coherent. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/152 "2003-07-08T02:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obfusciatrist \* > \*\*Based on everything I’ve read here and elsewhere, I know I am going to be in the minority on this, but: > > I pretty much agree with CK Dexter Haven 90%. \*\* I agree with you. I’m really surprised that this caused such a stir. There is an awful lot of leeway typically given these days to people whose intentions are concern for the welfare of children. Most people around here, from my experience, seem to view the “concerned for children” feeling as untouchable and above criticism. For so many dopers to drop that attitude and attack Dex, I must assume that **Persephone** has quite a fan club. Anyways, I still don’t see the big deal about Dex’s pit thread. **Persephone** didn’t present herself very well in the MPSIMS thread, a problem with Child Services should be treated with gravity, and her post really did come off like a “dopers are so great” hugfest that diminished the childrens’ situation. It is not at all rare around here for someone to be pitted for the things they _didn’t_ say, for the attitudes they _didn’t_ express, and without sticking around the old thread forever waiting for explanations that may never come. In fact, many people commonly use a Pit thread as the place for a grievance to be aired, and an explanation or clarification to be presented. **Persephone** did not take what some considered the appropriate attitude in her post, she didn’t express enough concern for the children to satisfy some people, so she got pitted for it. What makes Dex’s thread any different? It didn’t sound, from the replies to his thread, as if his being an admin were the sole issue. It sounded to me like a popular poster was being pitted, and some people decided that meant they could hold the pitter to a higher standard. If he acted without full knowledge, so what? How many pages does a thread have to go, how many posts must the OP make, before we’re deemed to have enough of the “real story” to pit someone? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/153 "2003-07-08T03:11:23Z")
Well, I still don’t know the degree of **Persephone’s** transgression wrt her custodial responsibility towards her children, but she most likely would do herself a favour reputation wise by clarifying what the problem was and how she intends to address it in the future. Not that it is any of my business, but her thread shocked me as much as it shocked Dex, and I would like to be relieved of the negative image that I presently have. All in all, I commend **Dex** for taking a stand on this issue. He sacrificed friendship in order to keep focus on the very real possibility that a friend of his needs a tune up . I’m sure that he viewed the Doper response up to the time of **Persephone’s** OP as enabling a destructive lifestyle. That is why in my opinion an open post was more effective towards a desirable outcome in this situation than a private e-mail. I sincerely hope that all is now well in **Persephone’s** household, and that the friendships ruined can be repaired. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/154 "2003-07-08T03:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\*You need to lurk a while longer before you come blasting in on unfamilar territory. Or at least get the facts right before you start telling other people what is right and what is wrong. \*\* Nope. **ZiggyB** is a member of this message board, just like you and me and **Persephone**. He has just as much right to offer his opinion as anyone. There is no such thing as a private thread on this board. What “facts” does he have wrong anyway? That he assumed that Persephone and Euty were the parents of the children in question? Rather than sniping at him, perhaps you could have explained the situation. The thing that’s really disturbing me about this whole thing is the “betrayal by a friend” angle. Did **Dex** know that Persephone and Eutychus held him so near and dear? I’ve hung out with lots of Dopers. Are there people out there who would feel betrayed if I Pitted them? ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/155 "2003-07-08T03:30:01Z")
“Welcome to SDMB Airlines. In compliance with federal Transportation Security Administration regulations, we require passengers to check all emotional baggage prior to boarding. No carryons are permitted on board this flight. Thank you for traveling with us.” We could all stand to listen to that announcement a little more carefully, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/156 "2003-07-08T03:35:36Z")
I think the little lesson to be learned hear is that anything in your private life that is put here, in a public forum, can come back and bite you on the ass. God, this was a pile on. I sometimes thing this place lives for trainwrecks. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/157 "2003-07-08T03:37:57Z")
Think. Think. Think. The word is think. Argh. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/158 "2003-07-08T03:43:51Z")
I cannot believe this thread is still going on. Look, people who’ve got a vested interest in the situation are dealing with it. Those who don’t just really need to shut up and stop speculating wildly, throwing in your two cents, or whatever it is you think you’re doing that you think is helpful, but isn’t. Let it go, for chrissakes. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/159 "2003-07-08T03:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shirley Ujest \* > \*\*Think. Think. Think. > > The word is think. > > Argh. \*\* The word is also “here”. 😉 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shirley Ujest \* > **I think the little lesson to be learned hear** ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688/160 "2003-07-08T03:50:56Z")
And seeing **Green Bean** on preview: Depends on the subject matter of the pitting, I would say. I think what has bothered me about **Dex** ’s post in **Persephone** ’s original thread was that they sorta completely missed the emotional point of the OP, which wasn’t exactly hard to see. Criticize her? Fine, if you feel the need. But for god’s sake, somewhere _else_. When someone’s writing about something that’s pretty devastating, you don’t piss on them. That’s just being humane. Once you’ve met someone in person, the expectation of humane behavior is higher, I’d say. Telling people to divest themselves of that expectation is unlikely to be any more successful than my telling them to divest themselves of their emotional baggage (even temporarily). But the original thread is unusual: most of the time, criticism alone is not going to be perceived as kicking someone when they’re down. But that’s exactly the feeling I got from the posts of **Dex** and **JillGat**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-persephone-and-dex/186688.md?page=9)