Duke,
Are you sure you want a Mormon boy to give you a new salad–all we know is jello? {Monty asks as he’s looking for the purple food dye.}
I don’t think that is quite true.
The original thread’s OP was about her appreciation for the help she received. While much of the ensuing brouhaha was directed at Persephone, there has been ample sneering at those who helped. This is the first time I have spoken of it on the boards–so yes, I am reacting to some of the comments from the original threads, but it’s happened here, too.
In this thread: “I found it outrageous that people would think that group hugs are the appropriate reaction to child endangerment or abuse.”
In the original thread:
“But Persephone should thank these people only if they insist she get some serious help, beyond just cleaning up the mess enough to get her kids back.”
and
“I wouldn’t want a Moderator to call me out of order, in the midst of a hug fest, for daring to suggest that the welfare of children might be more important than partying.”
Sarcastically, from the Pit thread:
“Awwwww, it’s so sweet, that all her Doper friends gathered around to help her clean up.”
and
“but don’t post negative comments there, that’s only for hugging and wallowing in self-congratulations.”
mhendo, you’re a decent guy most of the time, but I think your sarcasm in that line really does both me and you a disservice.
I hesitate to gt into the middle of this, but I feel a few comments are necessary:
-
There are about 15 people, all told, who are both membrs of this board and privy to the whole story behind the incident that caused the sequence of posts leading to this situation. At the openly posted request of Persephone, they are not publicizing the details of private lives underlying it. But even sitting here several hundred miles from any site of action, I know enough, from what’s been said on open board, to see a scenario in which Persephone is not totally at fault for conditions leading to CPS intervention. (Note that that is not a total exoneration; she has publicly accepted some of the blame for it.) But the picture of unfit mother partying while her children rot in squalor that Dex’s Pit thread painted is clearly not a totally accurate portrayal of what happened.
-
It was the child of a board member, babysitting, who called in CPS. It’s also important to note that CPS did not remove the children from Persephone’s custody, but only demanded that they be removed from the house until it was set to order.
-
Whether Dex “broke the rules” as they existed prior to this thread is immaterial. He failed to exercise good judgment in starting that thread. Now, given the moral indignation he clearly felt, and which is shared by many board members, at the idea of somebody leaving children in an unfit-to-live-in house to go to a board party, he had some justification in expressing his feelings.
-
But he did not have the full story, and a little thought would have led him to realize that it was accessible to him. An e-mail between moderators, which I’m certain is common practice in dealing with board problems, saying, in effect, “What the @!##@ was Persephone thinking?!?”, would have given him that mysterious background and obviated the whole problem.
-
Moderators are expected to exercise good judgment, to lean over backwards not to jump to conclusions. What Dex did, for which he was chastized, has openly apologized, and was exonerated by Persephone, was to fail to do so.
The point behind all this is A. We don’t have the whole story. B. We ain’t gonna get the whole story. C. Making moral judgments without the whole story is a bad move.
Final point, to Ed Zotti: IMHO, to the extent that the Pit serves a valuable purpose, it would be this: It provides a pace in which people can vent about the “slings and arrows of outraged fortune,” and in so doing find release and support (and often intelligent criticism) for the things which are upsetting them. That includes Pitting other members who have taken attitudes which irk them, but it also includes letting out how upset one is at the reckless driver who nearly got them into an auto accident, the obnoxiousness of political and relgiious leaders who make statements and take actions that they find deeply offensive, etc.
I don’t know how you’ve expressed the new rule, but I’d urge that if it isn’t phrased that way already, it be limited to “Staff shall not Pit other members.” I found nothing wrong in Czarcasm venting about the idiocy that Kid CzarcasmM’s school perpetrated; having driven in Atlanta, I think TubaDiva would have every right to describe the clown that nearly ran her off the road as and when such happens; and Gaudere ought to be able to complain about the unreasonable requirements of one of her clients – just as any of the rest of us would.
That’s all I’ve got to say. Persephone should never have allowed conditions in her home to come to the pass they did. However, I suspect strongly that she is not totally to blame. Kudos to the Dopers who dug in and helped her. Good for her that she’s fixing the underlying problems.
And there are two important moral lessons in the whole situation for all of us. Think about it.
This issue should probably die, but since it’s apparently not going to, I’d like to add a few sentiments.
First off, I feel sympathy for Persephone and her family. I’m sorry this happened to you, and you should know, I feel you have exhibited a most admirable courage in acknowledging your own responsiblilty, in addition to thanking friends for their support. It is difficult to admit that one isn’t doing the very best one can, especially where one’s children are concerned. It is equally difficult to do the very best one can 100% of the time. I’m glad you’ve taken steps to improve the situation and I’m sorry this soap opera has been played out in this manner. I hope you and your family are enjoying your new situation. 
Secondly, I feel sympathy for Dex as well. While I feel some of his posts on this topic have been quite brutal, I can understand the underlying concern, and he has been put through the ringer over this. That has got to hurt as well, and it seems like it’s a raw deal all the way around–for everyone involved. I hope he’s enjoying his camping holiday. I love to camp.
Even for Ed and the other mods and admins, I feel sympathy for them as well. They’ve performed admirably as stewards of this MB, and I’m sure this issue can’t be easy for them, involving friends as it does. Thanks for handling the situation.
This post has no cash value.
Thank you Polycarp, since I forgot that this sentiment was also rattling around my head. Excellent point.
I accept that, and i’m sorry. It came out snippier than i intended. And you are correct that some (a very few) people in this thread have been critical of the helpers.
But you still haven’t addressed the important issue–what i believe is the crucial issue in all of this–of how Dopers who know one another off the boards should treat each other on them. Should they cut a break to someone they know, or call it as they see it no matter who the person is? And if the former, doesn’t this lead to the possibilty of the boards developing into a group of competing cliques?
What about D. If you don’t want people making moral judgements about you (because, right or wrong, it is gonna happen) then don’t post this sort of personal information on a public message board?
We make judgements (moral and otherwise) on this board all the time, and often do so without complete information. If someone posts something here, we can only make a judgement based upon what we read here. It’s not fair to everyone else on the board to ask them to send personal emails evey time they intend to post, just to ensure that they have the “whole story.” Here’s my little list, for what it’s worth.
If you’re thinking about posting personal stuff about yourself and want to avoid being criticized or abused, do one of the following:
-
Don’t post at all. This removes any danger.
-
Post the whole story, and be prepared to take the criticism, as well as the support.
-
Post part of the story, but don’t complain if people make erroneous or unfair judgements due to not having the whole story.
Poly, you said that wonderfully.
I am a friend of Cristi’s and, as such, it probably does bias me in this situation. I probably know more about the situation than most of you, but less about it than others that are closer to her than even I am.
What has upset me most about this debacle was not the fact that Dex pitted Cristi… in her own words, she has said that she expected to get pitted… but that he made assumptions which had no basis in fact based on what Cristi had posted. As Cranky pointed out, I believe that the way he said it put Cristi in the most unflattering light possible. And that disturbs me. It would disturb me if it were posted that way from a “regular” poster, but to see it from an admin, that bothers me more. Maybe Dex shouldn’t have had to find out more information before pitting, but to make comments to insinuate that her house was rat infested with broken glass lying everywhere… when there was no basis for him to state such a thing… seems to be an incredible lack of judgement in my eyes.
I, like hardygrrl, felt that what Dex said in the MPSIMS thread could be construed as a flame. I feel that it, also, was an issue that should have been addressed.
I’m probably not saying this well, but I felt that, as a member of this Board, I needed to say what was on my mind. You can all take this with a grain of salt, as I recognize that I may be biased on the situation. But I would like to think that if this came up with someone else whom I didn’t know as well, I would feel the same amount of injustice was done.
Oh, yeah. There’s salad, and then there’s “Utah salad.” (Zenster! Teach this boy how to make a real salad! 
)
Getting back to the topic at hand…thank you, Poly for your wisdom.
-
It isn’t a matter of “popularity,” it is a matter of preconceptions of posters we see here all the time. We have developed mental simulcra of them and a set of incidents like this can disrupt that construct. We can get confused and angry and lash out when that happens. Perfectly natural, if unbecoming.
-
As much as I would like to think that I treat posters I have not met IRL with the same tolerance and understanding as those I have met, it does seem that human nature doesn’t always work that way. Many of us have met Seph, Euty, and Dex and that familiarity has bred, not contempt, but a greater sympathy. It is one of those things that keeps society together but these same stronger emotions can cause a stronger reaction when our view and expectations of a poster are challenged. After all, families tend to have bigger fights than strangers and there are times when we are more like a family than a community. We share details of our lives we’d never share with the guy three doors down. Hell, I don’t even know the name of the guy three doors down.
-
Dex overstated the circumstances to the point of hurting Persephone and deserves a swat upside the head for it. He’s gotten the swat and is unrepentant, which is his right. Perhaps he’ll learn something despite it.
-
Yes, mods, as our police force, should be held to a higher standard. Perhaps regular posters should, too. We know each other fairly well and, as members of the same community/family/whatever, a little peer group pressure can go a long way. We jump on newbies but are often slow to chastise our friends. Maybe that’s backwards.
-
Persephone and her family are slobs but that’s not the worst flaw a person could have. They have received a very scary wakeup call and I assume they are awake. As for the CPS visit, I’d rather they didn’t show up at my house without a week’s notice, too.
-
Thank you, Ed, for this thread.
-
TC68, you know how I adore you BUT the “I may get banned for this but…” threads/threats have gotten a little old. Feel free to counter with one of my many annoying habits but please limit it to one.
I’m not going to quote your entire post. But yes, you are right. You need to lurk a while longer before you come blasting in on unfamilar territory. Or at least get the facts right before you start telling other people what is right and what is wrong.
Dropzone well stated.
OK, dantheman, let’s say I posted the following Cafe Society thread:
“The other night, I lay down on my couch to have sex with my 6 year old nephew and re-watch The Matrix. While watching this time, I noticed that Lawrence Fishburne’s accent changed during the course of the film. Why did he change his accent?”
Is it your opinion that, because my OP was about The Matrix, it would be inappropriate for Dopers to call me on the fact that I stated I was having sex with my nephew? After all, The Matrix was the point of my thread.*
As for this idiocy:
Are Euty and Persephone correct to be mad at CK because of their IRL relationship with CK? Perhaps.
But quite frankly, I don’t give a fuck about the state of their IRL relationship. CK acted properly in terms of these Boards.
Perhaps, when all the facts are/were out, it turns out that CK’s reaction was incorrect. That does not mean that it was wrong. It was a proper response to the information provided.
The only thing shocking is that it took 21 hours from when Persephone posted the OP for anyone to call her out. We’se getting slow here, people.
Sua
P.S. Techchick, take several pills.
- No, I am not comparing Persephone’s situation to pedophilia. It’s called hyperbole, people.
Another thumbs up for SuaSponte.
It would be inappropriate to do so in that same thread, because the information was irrelevant to the topic, which was discussion of the movie.
If they did wish to call you on it, then they’d open up a Pit thread. The difference is that there’s not much gray area needed for an admission of child molestation. You said you did it (in your example - not trying to malign you). People should and would call you on it. There is no other information that is absolutely pertinent to be revealed before someone can say, “Sua, you ass, you can’t have sex with your nephew.”
Persephone’s situation was a little different, and perhaps we just plain disagree here. There were and are, IMO, many variables that were not (and have not been) immediately brought to light in that OP that were needed for one to make a fair judgment on the situation. This is why, for me, the two situations differ.
And of course, most people would likely assume you were using that same hyperbole - they wouldn’t likely assume you were actually having sex with your nephew. And if they did assume hyperbole, they’d be less likely to Pit you over it.
I’m probably not explaining myself very well.
Should the pit be a forum for fair, well-informed opinions?
I think so. If not, then it’s the forum for ignorance, and frankly I think the goal of the message board probably should extend to all forums.
Sua, you are making the hyperbolic comparison of pederastry with sloppiness, when the former is blatantly illegal while the latter is a judgement call and one on which the CPS has been known to err on the side of caution. To be honest, you are edging beyond Dex’s rats and urine-soaked mattresses. At least he was comparing different breeds of apple.
I reacted to Persephone’s original post with a “What the fuck?” too. I have just tried not to blow it out of proportion and reminded myself that the post was a thank you for help through a difficult time and that the situation had been rectified. Your comparison might have been more valid if you were thanking someone for their help in successfully overcoming your child-abusive tendencies.
FTR, I do not know anyone involved either IRL or online and couldn’t give a rat’s ass who is or is not popular.
I find it ironic that this whole mess started because Persephone wanted the whole board to know how much she appreciated the friendship and help she found among its members. She has stated that she thanked the people involved individually, and she could have kept the matter private, as some have suggested would have been more prudent, but she wanted the rest of us to know how amazing the board members were.
Sua, I feel that your example doesn’t fit–not because of the hyperbole, but because in our real example Persephone admitted her wrongs and thanked Dopers for helping her correct them.
I hate carrying your oogy example any further, but it would be more analagous if (instead of noticing Fishburne’s accent) you told the board you got busted for screwing your nephew, you’d received counseling and whatnot for your pedophilia, and along the way some of your Doper friends had also helped you stop your nephew-fucking ways… so you’d started this thread to acknowledge their support.
Some Dopers might applaud you for making a positive change in your life. Some Dopers might applaud the Dopers who helped you. And some other Dopers might decide, instead, to rake you over the coals for the original pedophilia.
Subsequently, yet other Dopers might think your critics were wrong for ripping you a new asshole over something that you’d admitted, regretted, and had already been treated for… but others might feel that the pedophilia was so utterly offensive (and that you hadn’t shown enough contrition), that the further castigation was well-warranted.
Throw in some “weren’t they friends?” and “what can mods do?” and you’d have the makings of three pit-worthy threads.
I’ve been coming here since 1999. I don’t post much, but I read with interest.
I think it interesting that, while the topics change, this sort of stuff seems to happen every now and then. Somebody does something that pisses someone off, many “regulars” get all hot and bothered, Ed intervenes, and eventually we all move on. Let’s see, there was the whole issue with Satan/Drain Bead, and before that it was . . . ummm, some moderator who’s name I’ve forgotten. In any case, its worth noting a few constants:
- Ed Z’s intervention. Great job.
- Everbody gets over it. Come’on folks: live, learn, forget, forgive.
This board is fun – fun to read, fun to learn, fun to meet and greet. If it stops being fun, maybe a break is in order?
Looks like my prediction was correct.
Where’s my 50 bucks?