# About Radical Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440 "2017-06-20T15:10:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/81 "2017-06-22T20:41:43Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am not having problems at my current age, nor have I had significant problems for decades now. > > The book, blog, and related projects are on behalf of kids growing up now who still don’t get to read a book about people like us, so they still have to sort it out themselves without the sense that there are such people and that they live OK, happy, lives complete with romance and sex and friendships and so forth. I see. That makes sense. Good luck, and again, I apologize for my earlier tone. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/82 "2017-06-22T21:01:23Z")
Apology accepted. 🙂 And thanks for the good-luck wishes! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/83 "2017-06-22T23:44:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I would be surprised if any feminist said it was OK to subordinate a woman’s independence to her family. . . . Many actually do, so long as it’s clear that it is her freely-made choice. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP isn’t talking about feminists. He’s talking about _radical_ feminists. Is there not a difference? Per the six-year-old-marriage debate, I need you to define exactly where the boundary is. More seriously, who the hell gives fuck one what radicals think or believe? ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/84 "2017-06-23T01:25:19Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > How about 5 words or less? I proffer: _What’chu talkin’ 'bout, Willis?_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/85 "2017-06-23T01:55:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Per the six-year-old-marriage debate, I need you to define exactly where the boundary is. More seriously, who the hell gives fuck one what radicals think or believe? You’ll have to ask the OP about that. He’s the one who introduced the term into this this thread. I assume he had a reason to include that qualifier, but I could be wrong-- which is why I ended that post with a question. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/86 "2017-06-23T02:04:08Z")
**AHunter3** , are kids the intended audience for the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/87 "2017-06-23T08:02:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > FWIW, I’m uncomfortable with how transsexualism plays to traditional sex roles. I don’t like the reinforcement of stereotypes – girls wear dresses, boys wear pants, girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks. Or, much worse, girls are nurses and boys are doctors. Looks like your understanding of transsexualism is half a century out of date. The official gatekeepers once tried to run it that way, but over the decades transsexual people gained a voice they’d never had before; they spoke up for themselves, informed by 2nd and 3rd wave feminism and the burgeoning queer theory, and both the trans people and the medical people have long since dismantled those obsolete restrictions. The antiquated system you describe, the first halting steps toward transsexual medical care, had been formulated when the world was as in _Mad Men_ Season 1, before Friedan published _The Feminine Mystique_ and kicked off the 2nd wave. IOW, understanding of transsexualism and the Standards of Care have evolved for the better thanks to feminism, just as society and laws have evolved for the better thanks to feminism. **Muffin** ’s accounts of feminism above did a very good job of accounting for how the world has evolved with the leaven of feminism, both radical and otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/88 "2017-06-23T09:02:56Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Yeah, I’ve tossed away “sissy” for that very reason. Too bad, because it was a good word. It comes from “sister”. It’s the reciprocal of “tomboy”. But yeah, at this point it’s way too tied in with the fetish community and that makes it very misleading. I haven’t as of yet been worried about “girl”. I’m actually a children’s libber sort of person and reject a lot of the adultish notion that adults are radically different (and more ‘whole’) people. Still, it may be time to retire “girl”. I’ll think about it. When someone other than a childhood friend or her mother refers to a woman over age 30 as a “girl” it’s almost sure to be dismissive. I’ve known a few exceptions, but those few exceptions would have called the Pope “boy” and invited him in for a cup of wine if he’d walked in front of their house. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/89 "2017-06-23T09:19:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > When someone other than a childhood friend or her mother refers to a woman over age 30 as a “girl” it’s almost sure to be dismissive. I’ve known a few exceptions, but those few exceptions would have called the Pope “boy” and invited him in for a cup of wine if he’d walked in front of their house. I had an older boss once that I hated for a number of reasons, but at one point she was eavesdropping on a phone conversation with a client, and the client mentioned my twenty something co-worker, and I said, “Oh, she’s such a sweet girl.” And literally the first thing my boss said to me on review was, “She’s not a girl, she’s a _woman._” I wanted to punch her smug fucking face. I am a 34 year old woman and I will not have some micromanaging old lady tell me how to refer to other women. If my coworker had taken issue, that’d be another story. Fuck I hated that boss. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/90 "2017-06-23T10:40:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I had an older boss once that I hated for a number of reasons, but at one point she was eavesdropping on a phone conversation with a client, and the client mentioned my twenty something co-worker, and I said, “Oh, she’s such a sweet girl.” And literally the first thing my boss said to me on review was, “She’s not a girl, she’s a _woman._” I wanted to punch her smug fucking face. I am a 34 year old woman and I will not have some micromanaging old lady tell me how to refer to other women. [QUOTE=a certain TV series] **Giles:** Once you get to know her, she’s a very unique girl. I hope you’re not going to push her— **Walsh** (_interrupting_) **:** I think I do know her. And I have found her to be a unique woman. **Giles:** Woman, of course. How wrong of me to choose my own words. [/QUOTE] (Adding meaningless text because the system won’t let me post with only the material in quotes, stupid system.) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/91 "2017-06-23T11:43:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > When someone other than a childhood friend or her mother refers to a woman over age 30 as a “girl” it’s almost sure to be dismissive. I’ve known a few exceptions, but those few exceptions would have called the Pope “boy” and invited him in for a cup of wine if he’d walked in front of their house. I’ve been taught that it is dismissive too, which is another reason why it’s jarring to me when **AHunter3** uses it. If someone I’m not familiar with were to refer to me as a “girl” in the workplace, it would irritate me. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as a “girl” in a non-playful context. But I don’t think it’s almost sure to be dismissive in its intention. Some people go with “girl” because “woman” seems so formal and “lady” seems so old-fashioned. I would cringe if someone called me a “gal”, and I don’t think I’m the only one. So “girl” has become the default. I have become more conscious about using “person”. So in **Spice’s** example, I probably would have said, “she’s such a sweet person,” especially if I knew other people were listening. Also, when I’m sending work emails to a group that just happens to be all-female, I avoid the “hello ladies” stuff, and just say “hello everyone.” Personally, I don’t like being reminded of my gender in every single interaction, so I try to give other people the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/92 "2017-06-23T16:26:06Z")
But by doing this for other young boys, aren’t you kinda saying, “hey, if you like these things, that means you have a girl gender?” Maybe they don’t WANT to feel that way. I think if you really want to help young boys who were like you, and felt feminine, it would be better to break the idea early that liking girly things isn’t bad or “gay” or whatever. It’d be like the whole “tomboys are really just transmen in denial” bullshit that I’ve seen in some places. Which does a real disservice to both tomboys and transmen. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/93 "2017-06-23T17:05:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > When someone other than a childhood friend or her mother refers to a woman over age 30 as a “girl” it’s almost sure to be dismissive. I’ve known a few exceptions, but those few exceptions would have called the Pope “boy” and invited him in for a cup of wine if he’d walked in front of their house. > [@monstro](#): > > I’ve been taught that it is dismissive too, which is another reason why it’s jarring to me when **AHunter3** uses it. If someone I’m not familiar with were to refer to me as a “girl” in the workplace, it would irritate me. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as a “girl” in a non-playful context. But I don’t think it’s almost sure to be dismissive in its intention. Some people go with “girl” because “woman” seems so formal and “lady” seems so old-fashioned. I would cringe if someone called me a “gal”, and I don’t think I’m the only one. So “girl” has become the default. [Here’s an older blog post](http://ahunter3.livejournal.com/10587.html) in which I explain why I tend to say “girl” rather than “woman” in reference to myself. It’s not an “on principles” kind of thing, and as noted before I _do_ refer to myself as one of the women on occasion. But although I seem to be somewhat short of a final position on the matter, it’s not because I haven’t given it any thought. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/94 "2017-06-23T17:20:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **AHunter3** , are kids the intended audience for the OP? No. But the _book_ is intended to work as a “YA” offering, hence to be read by precocious 4th graders on up. There’s a cute app called “Wordle” which lets you toss in a writing sample and it comes back with the words you use most often, a sort of graphic representation of the density of the reading involved. [Here](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ahunter3/10255544/2920/2920_original.jpg) is the Wordle graphic of my book. \* [Here](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ahunter3/10255544/6434/6434_original.png) is a wordle of the OP of this thread for comparison. ## Not the same kind of writing. One is a story. The other is a piece of theory. Or metatheory, since it is theory _about_ theory. - Ever time I see the book’s Wordle I cringe to see how fond I apparently am of the word “like”. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/95 "2017-06-23T18:32:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But by doing this for other young boys, aren’t you kinda saying, “hey, if you like these things, that means you have a girl gender?” \*\* ponders \*\* I don’t think so, no. The book isn’t a Book of Answers that says “Hey, if you’re male and you have these traits, consider calling yourself THIS…” or something of that ilk, at all. It’s a STORY, a narrative, a nonfiction novel. It doesn’t make a batch of assertions about what anyone “should do”. It lays out the events in my own life (junior high through early adult). I am thinking that if some 13 year old picks it up and reads it and really connects with it, like “Wow another person like me”, as I would have done if there had been such a book for me to read at that age, then there’s a sense in which I’m saying that “here’s a way of understanding this mess that may help you comprehend and cope”, but it’s only going to have that message if it has that kind of resonance. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/96 "2017-06-24T05:22:11Z")
The way I’ve always interpreted what you say about yourself is that you are trans, but you do not feel any incongruity with your body. Your body is male, and you feel no need to try to change that, even though your mind is female. My understanding was that you prefer male pronouns, but it sounds like that may be changing. As for your style, I have to admit that it is offputting. I generally find myself getting too confused, and while I’m sure I could go back and read it like I do other complicated stuff, I generally find it easier to scroll down and see other people explain it. It seems to me that you are the gal who comes up with the ideas, but you’re not that good at making them understandable to the layperson. If you are intending to make things for a child/teen audience, I would suggest finding someone who understands what you are saying (or, when they don’t, knows how to ask the right questions) who is also good at writing things for teens and children. The same idea would go for a general audience. You kinda want to go for an eighth grade level or lower for that audience, IME. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/97 "2017-06-24T13:05:43Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > [Here’s an older blog post](http://ahunter3.livejournal.com/10587.html) in which I explain why I tend to say “girl” rather than “woman” in reference to myself. I appreciate your explanation (as well as your openness to answering our questions). But I have to say… your explanation only contributes to the perception I have that your identity is one of specialness, first and foremost. “Everyone has bought into the notion of adulthood, but not me! I’m the only one who sees the myth of adulthood! They’re faking it, but I’m keeping it REAL!” I don’t think adults are better than children. But I’m not ashamed to say that I’d rather listen to an adult’s perspective on gender and sexuality, since it take emotional maturity and experience to really understand these things. A girl is someone who hasn’t come into her own yet and is still figuring things out. I am a million miles from perfect as a 40-year-old, but I was an even hotter mess as a girl as a 20-year-old. A lot of 20-year-olds are. And I didn’t know anything about the world or myself as a ten-year-old. A lot of ten-year-olds espouse some stupid gender notions (“Girls like pink! Girls are into princesses and playing dress-up! Boys are icky and gross! They eat worms and throw rocks!”) It has been my experience that children tend to be even more rigid in their gender thinking than adults, since all they can see are the patterns, not the nuances. So I don’t know why I should put much weight on the ideas held by someone who identifies with a juvenile mindset. But I’m down for listening to someone with a mature mindset. Lastly, I think I’m bothered by “girl” because your male body protects you from full-on “girl” treatment. Yes, you’ve been called horrible names your whole life, and I’m sure you also feel pain when women are condescended to and infantilized. But you still get to present yourself as a male and escape for awhile. As someone who does not have a sexuality and doesn’t really exhibit many of the behaviors of “grown” women, I could legitimately claim “girl” too. But I don’t know what that kind of coyness would get me other than lack of respect. And I believe I’d be making it harder for my sisters to have their “woman” identity respected. I’m happy to hear you’re open to using different terminology. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/98 "2017-06-24T13:18:19Z")
See post #94 up above, **BigT** ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/99 "2017-06-25T13:54:12Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Looks like your understanding of transsexualism is half a century out of date. The official gatekeepers once tried to run it that way, but over the decades transsexual people gained a voice they’d never had before; they spoke up for themselves, informed by 2nd and 3rd wave feminism and the burgeoning queer theory, and both the trans people and the medical people have long since dismantled those obsolete restrictions. The antiquated system you describe, the first halting steps toward transsexual medical care, had been formulated when the world was as in _Mad Men_ Season 1, before Friedan published _The Feminine Mystique_ and kicked off the 2nd wave. IOW, understanding of transsexualism and the Standards of Care have evolved for the better thanks to feminism, just as society and laws have evolved for the better thanks to feminism. > > **Muffin** ’s accounts of feminism above did a very good job of accounting for how the world has evolved with the leaven of feminism, both radical and otherwise. I am sometimes attacked because of the way I dress at work - I always have a skirt-suit on, heels, as professional as possible, because in the conservative engineering fields that’s often just how female executives are supposed to dress. Yet I will get 20-something Facebook firebrands calling me a “heteronormative conformist enabler” or some other twaddle because I post a photo of myself meeting with energy ministers at Parliament while wearing a Dior suit, instead of blue jeans and an Ed Hardy t-shirt. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440/100 "2017-06-26T01:09:24Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I am sometimes attacked because of the way I dress at work - I always have a skirt-suit on, heels, as professional as possible, because in the conservative engineering fields that’s often just how female executives are supposed to dress. Yet I will get 20-something Facebook firebrands calling me a “heteronormative conformist enabler” or some other twaddle because I post a photo of myself meeting with energy ministers at Parliament while wearing a Dior suit, instead of blue jeans and an Ed Hardy t-shirt. :rolleyes: I wouldn’t listen to someone whose idea of fashion is Ed Hardy. _shudder_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-radical-feminism/789440.md?page=6)