# About that "end of democracy" talk **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 28, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796 "2021-12-28T17:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![billy-jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@billy-jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy-jack)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/41 "2022-01-02T22:26:31Z")
[quote=“Dr\_Paprika, post:39, topic:956796, full:true”] 1. Some conservatives who deviated from Trump a long time ago have consistently raised concerns. But many Republicans do not listen to guys like David Frum or seek an intellectual response.[/quote] Trump is the deviant, not the actual Conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/42 "2022-01-02T23:59:05Z")
Like I’m going to tell you Dopes where I live. Yeah, right. Are you ok with ANY amount of illegal voting? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/43 "2022-01-03T00:03:59Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/44 "2022-01-03T00:05:57Z")
Moderating: > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Like I’m going to tell you Dopes where I live. Yeah, right. That’s a backhanded insult to @iiandyiiii . Knock it off. No warning this time. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/45 "2022-01-03T00:09:40Z")
No it’s NOT. Aren’t posters referred to as Dopers or even Dopes? I didn’t insult him. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/46 "2022-01-03T00:10:28Z")
Take it up in ATMB if you disagree. No one refers to Dopers as ‘Dopes.’ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/47 "2022-01-03T00:10:58Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I live in Kentucky. It’s a red state. Unbelievably so if you discount Louisville and Lexington. Those two towns are pretty much the entire democratic voter areas. Here is a fundamental difference between today’s American liberals and conservatives. Conservatives will say things like “take away the two most populous regions of the state, and this is a red state.” This is the kind of statement that should make you do a spit take. It is fundamentally outrageous. What is Kentucky, in a political and cultural and social sense? To a liberal, Kentucky is its people. Apparently, to conservatives, it makes sense to say things that imply that one can judge the nature of “Kentucky” by ignoring a huge chunk of its population. Somehow, living in a less densely populated part of the state makes you more validly countable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/48 "2022-01-03T00:22:31Z")
Illegal voting is bad. So far I remain unconvinced that it has any effect on real life elections, and I think it’s most likely that it’s only brought up as a political issue because the Republicans in office think they need to make it harder to vote in order to win elections, and want to soothe the ego of Trump because he can’t accept that he lost legitimately (which he did). You’ve provided no evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/49 "2022-01-03T00:26:49Z")
I said nothing about Trump. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/50 "2022-01-03T00:29:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > In the vast majority of cases that is correct. However, there are local elections that are decided by a handful of votes. Votes from the non-eligible, including dead voters, can affect the results. > [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > If an election is so close that a miniscule number of fraudulent votes make a difference, the loser will usually demand a recount. And really, if it’s so close that a few votes one way or the other will make an actual difference, does it really matter who won? The local populace is obviously pretty close to a 50%-1, 50%+1 split. Plus, I’m willing to bet in most areas, there’s at least a few people who intend to vote on election day, but get derailed because of events outside their control. Should one party lose because Bob the Democrat breaks his leg on the way to the voting booth? Or because Joe the Republican has a heart attack that morning? If things really are that close, almost anything could flip the election. > [@billy-jack](#): > > Trump is the deviant, not the actual Conservatives. You keep saying this, but how did he end up with the second-highest vote total of any presidential candidate, ever? Like it or not, in the US, “conservatives” are either Trump supporters, or irrelevant. Fixing that is on you, like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/51 "2022-01-03T00:32:28Z")
You asked a question and I answered it. You’ve provided no evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/52 "2022-01-03T00:35:36Z")
Talking about “soothing the ego of Trump” isn’t an answer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/53 "2022-01-03T00:36:31Z")
You asked a question and I provided my opinion as to the answer. If you didn’t want my opinion, why did you ask? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/54 "2022-01-03T00:39:01Z")
Because it’s non-responsive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/55 "2022-01-03T00:40:31Z")
What are you talking about? You asked a question. I answered. My answer contained multiple ideas, not just about Trump. If you want more clarification, then feel free to ask another question. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/56 "2022-01-03T00:42:13Z")
> [@billy-jack](#): > > I think that Conservatism comes from your outlook on life. A real Conservative finds value in our great institutions – religion, business, and government – and wants to preserve them, not destroy them. If changes must be made, make them slowly and deliberately. Conservative positions arise from this outlook on life. > [@OldOlds](#): > > I also heard a conservative once define himself as someone who doesn’t embrace change without knowing that the change will be an improvement over the status quo. That is, he may acknowledge a problem needs fixing, but worries about rushing into things. Conservatives and conservatism have always trotted out self-serving definitions that dissolve whenever they are put to the test. The only consistent value that conservatives have _ever_ fought for is preservation of the privileges of those benefiting from the status quo hierarchy. They’ll say anything that supports that goal in the present circumstances. Free trade is protected only to the extent that the particular question of free trade protects those already at the top of the hierarchy. Small government and low public spending, similarly, are actually pursued as policies when those policies actually benefit those already at the top. It has always been the case, especially in America. Conservatives have always fought—often to the death—efforts to oppose injustice, and no injustice has ever been so intolerable such that a conservative won’t find some argument to put off addressing it. This video has some choice research about the history of conservatism. Just a few juicy quotes: > We keep behaving as if conservatism’s disdain for equity isn’t there, or that it’s new. But it’s been there since the beginning. **Conservatism upholds the status quo and defends the powerful.** … Conservatism has rallied every time a movement has tried to share power with the disadvantaged. … Conservatives say “We are the party of measured steps, of caution, of evolution over revolution,” and that’s usually just before they say “But now? Now is the time for swift, decisive action!” … and that’s what they’ve always said. … They tell us that that’s what their party is like, and we take their word for it. … Conservatism is a reactionary politics that has, at best, mixed feelings about democracy. … [W]e can’t talk about the alt-right if we keep portraying them as a break from the conservative tradition. **They are the conservative tradition.** Only more. There’s nothing that they believe that conservatives don’t have a long history of being sympathetic towards. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/E4CI2vk3ugk/maxresdefault.jpg "Endnote 3: The Origins of Conservatism") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4CI2vk3ugk) ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/57 "2022-01-03T00:43:56Z")
Bingo. You see that same argument, writ large, in arguments over the Electoral College. The foundational belief is that the votes of some people _ought_ to count more than the votes of others. (And the “others” are, well, usually others.) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/58 "2022-01-03T00:47:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s most likely that it’s only brought up as a political issue because the Republicans in office think they need to make it harder to vote in order to win elections, Cite for that part. ---
**Author:** ![billy-jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@billy-jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy-jack)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/59 "2022-01-03T00:49:10Z")
Trump is no Conservative. Conservativeness springs out of your outlook on life. You find value in the great institutions such as business, religion, and government and want to keep them, not destroy them. Conservative positions are based on that outlook on life. You aren’t a Conservative because you say proclaim those positions – you have those positions because of who you are and how you view life. There is no indication that Trump has ever wanted to preserve anything but his own wealth and influence. Sure, he’ll say what he thinks his core supporters want him to say, but that doesn’t mean that he believes what he says at all. He has no Conservative values or principles. To the contrary, he is quite the opportunist. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796/60 "2022-01-03T00:49:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite for that part. Reality? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-that-end-of-democracy-talk/956796.md?page=4)