# About the significance of birth as a landmark moment in attaining personhood. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295 "2010-01-24T23:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/21 "2010-01-25T02:05:17Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’m not sure that makes any practical difference. Either an organism is viable and will continue to flourish, or it will break down and die. Unless there’s some long lasting and meaningful “between” state of life and death, I think Schrödinger still has an interesting paradox on his hands. Well you yourself acknowledge that there is a very fine gradient of consciousness, how can you then go on to classify all states of existence as either living or dead? I’m just saying that if we go even further, all of life exists on a gradient, and some people can be missing some processes and be in a hard to define grey area. Babies belong to this group, as they haven’t yet developed most of the unique mental processes that are a subset of lets call them ‘life process’. Of course it would help if we took a more nuanced stance on life than: “now this baby’s appearance is sufficiently developed to evoke an emotional response from me”. [QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Following Gaudere’s thought experiment a few years back, mental activity is tightly connected to the essence of humanity. Consider this gruesome scenario: a head has become detached from its body, with each maintained with artificial life support. I’d argue that a headless corpse isn’t really a person. But a living and thinking head would be an entity worth fighting for. [/QUOTE] Precisely. But how much mental activity is enough? If more sophisticated technology were available, would you be opposed to grading not only newborns, but all people on a scale of “humanness” based on the strength and uniqueness of their mental activity? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/22 "2010-01-25T02:06:20Z")
Historically speaking, it’s a zone somewhere between the fourth and fifth month (The Quickening, when the motion of the baby can be felt) of the pregnancy and the second year of life. At _some_ point in that period, it’s definitely a person. But remember, at some points, thanks to infant mortality, people did not consider babies people to be given names until the christening for a reason. Can we take that as a working range, or would you like to push for earlier or later? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/23 "2010-01-25T02:14:53Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Historically speaking, it’s a zone somewhere between the fourth and fifth month (The Quickening, when the motion of the baby can be felt) of the pregnancy and the second year of life. At _some_ point in that period, it’s definitely a person. But remember, at some points, thanks to infant mortality, people did not consider babies people to be given names until the christening for a reason. > Can we take that as a working range, or would you like to push for earlier or later? By referencing “Christening”, I think you tie us too closely to Christian tradition. But it’s certainly true that some societies routinely allow the killing of babies for various reasons. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/24 "2010-01-25T02:21:10Z")
Because a child who has been born is cognitively aware of their surroundings. And yes, things do change in the instant of birth, dramatic changes in fact. The brain goes haywire at the moment of birth. It’s amazing how many people seem hellbent on devaluing human life. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/25 "2010-01-25T02:23:43Z")
Mojo Pin, I see what you’re saying, and you can pick all sorts of situations that can fit in this “gray” area of existence, but I think it’s a false distinction. Whether or not there’s consciousness or anything more than a handful of cells, it’s life. If it turns out the cells or the organism isn’t viable for whatever reason you can imagine, it will die. From the moment of fertilization to the coffin, cells were dividing, bodily processes are at work to keep the person viable. Mental awareness shouldn’t factor in whether something is alive or not. Even if you’re keeping someone alive through artificial measures, they’re still alive. Their bodies will continue to require fuel and energy and expel waste. Until these processes come to a halt, you can’t say they’re anything _but_ alive. Unless, of course, you create another word and definition for it, but please be precise and be sure it has some clinical or biological distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/26 "2010-01-25T02:28:00Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > Does it make any difference if this consensus was reached not out of any factual basis but for emotional reasons? Does it make any difference if Martian baboons have taken over the Romanian Embassy? I disagree with your suggestion that the consensus is not based in fact) ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/27 "2010-01-25T02:29:44Z")
It seems like I may have overestimated the occurrence of third trimester abortions. I am glad to hear they are not frequent at all. Does anyone know if this is the case worldwide? In any case. I agree with post #22 on the window of let’s say third trimester (rounding off the after the quickening) to let’s say 2 years. Before that it is just tissue, after that it is a person fully aware of himself (I like the image I read from someone here of having an internal narrative of his life). Even if those dates move a bit, I think we can all agree that there is some period of a baby’s life when he is not a self-aware person. He is alive, but he is not experiencing the fullness of being aware, of being a person. Imagine now a baby that is born with an unexpected complication. A complication that means that all there is for that child’s future is a shortened life of suffering in hospitals receiving treatments that won’t ever restore him to full health and a normal life. A life that will impact the life of the parents and the rest of the family. That often results in divorces and unhappy siblings. Would it be wrong to terminate that suffering and help the baby die an early death (why yes, I mean kill the baby)? Many parents will choose to keep that baby and fight for it beyond all hope. I applaud them for it (my wife and I decided against having an amniocentesis because we would have kept the baby no matter what the result). But should that value be imposed on the parents that don’t want that life? What will the baby experience of that death? He won’t know of the decision or the circumstances that lead to it. There will be no suffering, no existential anguish. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/28 "2010-01-25T02:32:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s amazing how many people seem hellbent on devaluing human life. remember, you’re arguing with people who only live for the next, better life. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/29 "2010-01-25T02:33:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Because a child who has been born is cognitively aware of their surroundings. And yes, things do change in the instant of birth, dramatic changes in fact. The brain goes haywire at the moment of birth. Do you mean aware in a way different from a mouse or a bird? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/30 "2010-01-25T02:39:29Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > But how much mental activity is enough? If more sophisticated technology were available, would you be opposed to grading not only newborns, but all people on a scale of “humanness” based on the strength and uniqueness of their mental activity? ## Is the technology transparent? In other words, is there a consensus about what the readings represent? Realistically, I suspect the answer would be no. But within a thought experiment: provided there are safety margins, clear and well understood measurements, strong motivation, acceptably low clerical and laboratory error, privacy safeguards, and cost effectiveness, I wouldn’t mind such grading. But in practice rules of thumb are preferable. Props to [Carl Sagan](http://www.2think.org/science_abortion.shtml): page 3 of that essay contains some discussion of personhood. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/31 "2010-01-25T02:57:35Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > remember, you’re arguing with people who only live for the next, better life. I meant the OP which is devaluing human life. Case in point: > [@Sapo](#): > > Do you mean aware in a way different from a mouse or a bird? Yes, because they are human babies. I personally have a suspicion that at least 80% of thiose I interact with on the internet are not sentient. Should I treat them as people? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/32 "2010-01-25T02:58:24Z")
As others have said, the moment of birth is, legally and practically speaking, not all that important. Personally, if I were omniscient I’d assign the moment at which abortion laws become more restrictive at the moment of the brain-stem connecting to the spine. Prior to that, pain neurons aren’t in place, and I see no reason to accord any respect at all to a creature with no consciousness and no capacity to experience suffering. I believe that connection generally occurs around the 24th week of pregnancy; if we make the laws more restrictive after, say, the 22nd week, that strikes me as reasonable. I disagree that it’s entirely about the rights of the baby’s mother. Her rights are highly important, but as the fetus develops increasing capacities to experience pain, its rights start to show up. I don’t know that I’d treat those rights pre-birth as more important than, say, the rights of a cat–but I think they’re not non-zero. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/33 "2010-01-25T03:05:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, because they are human babies. You mean because of genetics? That doesn’t mean they are persons, though. Just as euthanasia allows for killing people that are human and breathe but are no longer “there”. What is it that you posit makes a human baby different from any other animal which we kill daily? Will that baby know of his life or death the way a five year old would? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/34 "2010-01-25T03:09:55Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > What will the baby experience of that death? He won’t know of the decision or the circumstances that lead to it. There will be no suffering, no existential anguish. I just don’t think we can say that for certain, once the baby has been born. At that point, it is a living human being (why? Because it is alive and it is a human), no matter how unaware it is. Might you be right? You may. But you may not be. I don’t feel that being reckless is the way to go on such a delicate issue. P.S. Good luck in your situation, whatever it may be. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/35 "2010-01-25T03:11:36Z")
It’s arbitrary. So birth is just as good as, say, the first trimester, or the first word ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/36 "2010-01-25T03:16:36Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > You mean because of genetics? That doesn’t mean they are persons, though. Just as euthanasia allows for killing people that are human and breathe but are no longer “there”. > > What is it that you posit makes a human baby different from any other animal which we kill daily? Will that baby know of his life or death the way a five year old would? Okay, then where would you draw the line? I’m not trying to trap you, I swear. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/37 "2010-01-25T03:23:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It’s arbitrary. So birth is just as good as, say, the first trimester, or the first word no, it’s not “just as good as” using the first word to define personhood. you wouldn’t count a from-birth mute in the census? you would deny him a social security number? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/38 "2010-01-25T03:31:44Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > I agree that birth is a moment of great emotional significance for the parents. And I suspect the reason for that is that those who had a greater emotional connection to their newborn child tended to ensure the survival of their genes better. So maybe it’s not a “mere fluke”, but there still isn’t any universal truth behind it, either. It isn’t a universal truth that there’s a difference between a baby that’s already been born and one that has not yet been born? This isn’t a subtle distinction here. An unborn baby is inside its mother’s womb, and a baby that’s already been born is outside its mother’s body. This major difference is the cause of all kinds of other differences (e.g. practically anyone can carry or feed a newborn baby, but only the mother can do this for an unborn baby), and it would be weird NOT to attribute any particular significance to the fact that a baby has gone from existing entirely inside its mother’s body to existing outside her body. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/39 "2010-01-25T03:31:44Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Whether or not there’s consciousness or anything more than a handful of cells, it’s life. If it turns out the cells or the organism isn’t viable for whatever reason you can imagine, it will die. From the moment of fertilization to the coffin, cells were dividing, bodily processes are at work to keep the person viable. Mental awareness shouldn’t factor in whether something is alive or not. Even if you’re keeping someone alive through artificial measures, they’re still alive. Thought experiment: Using some sort of supertechnology, you disassemble Bob into his individual cells while keeping every last cell alive. Is Bob dead or alive, when he’s nothing but a scattered collection of unconnected cells? > [@mswas](#): > > I personally have a suspicion that at least 80% of thiose I interact with on the internet are not sentient. Should I treat them as people? That’s pure _SNAPPY COMEBACK GENERATOR ERROR 306_, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/40 "2010-01-25T03:48:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s pure _SNAPPY COMEBACK GENERATOR ERROR 306_, and you know it. No seriously. I do not think YOU specifically are capable of anything but mimicry. Should I count you as a person? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=3)