# About the significance of birth as a landmark moment in attaining personhood. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295 "2010-01-24T23:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/61 "2010-01-25T10:39:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In Judaism it is the bris where the name is given. However, I think this custom came from the understanding that many babies died in the first days of life, and that the solemn event of giving a name was going to be wasted unless you waited some period of time to be more sure that the baby was going to make it. I didn’t have all that much to do with abandoning children on hillsides. > **[Infanticide | Greece and Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Greece_and_Rome)** > > The historical Greeks considered the practice of adult and child sacrifice barbarous, however, infant exposure was widely practiced in ancient Greece. It was advocated by Aristotle in the case of congenital deformity: "As to the exposure of children, let there be a law that no deformed child shall live." > In Greece, the decision to expose a child was typically the father's, although in Sparta the decision was made by a group of elders. Exposure was the preferred method of disposal, as that act in... I was thinking more of Romulus and Remus. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/62 "2010-01-25T12:09:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh? Prove that you are a person. Prove you are. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/63 "2010-01-25T12:48:01Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > Well I think we’ve been talking past each other a bit then. I thought this was a discussion deliberately removed from legalities and convention, and more to do with what fundamentally makes a person and when. Hence the value judgments. Oh. Okay. Well in that case: > [@Voyager](#): > > Have you ever been at a birth? After the baby emerges and the cord is cut, it is an independent entity, breathing by itself, crying, seeing, grasping, living outside the mother. And of course it is stimulated in ways it never was before. That’s a pretty fundamental change. > > I can buy personhood being assigned somewhere between the development of brain waves as Sagan said and viability as **John Mace** suggested. I’m not aware of cases where a fetus who could live on its own was aborted, are you? What he said. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/64 "2010-01-25T15:39:02Z")
You seem to be asking why an arbitrary line is drawn. And the answer is because, as a society, we agreed on one. Yesterday I was just as capable of driving a car as I am today, but now that I’m sixteen it is allowed. Yesterday I was the same person I am today but now I’m old enough to marry, join the army, vote. You’re right, I was the same person yesterday I was today. But as a society we have agreed that people can’t drive till they are 16, marry, join the navy whatever. This seems akin to the argument a pedophile makes about having sex with children. 15 1/2 years of age illegal, 16 yrs okay. And it is arbitrary. But it’s better than throwing the doors wide open and saying sleep with whoever you like no matter the age. Marry 13 yr olds, send 11 yr olds to war, end your child’s life prebirth or after. The answer is, as a society we have agreed on these norms, we find them acceptable ways of keeping the strong from exploiting the weak. There is somewhere a 14yr old mature enough to have sex, a 12yr old who’s a competent driver, a 15yr old ready for marriage. But that doesn’t change anything since as a society we’ve decided it’s better to protect the many, who are not ready for these things, at the cost of the few who may be. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/65 "2010-01-25T16:29:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Prove you are. This is a cheap debating tactic. I’m not arguing that side of the position. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/66 "2010-01-25T16:30:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Present day AI/chat programs aren’t capable of my level of conversation; certainly not for years. Basically; my evidence that I’m a person is that barring aliens or time travellers hooking their AI to the Internet there really isn’t an alternative. So the ability to have a chat is what makes someone a person? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/67 "2010-01-25T16:45:24Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, it’s not “just as good as” using the first word to define personhood. > > you wouldn’t count a from-birth mute in the census? you would deny him a social security number? I was exaggerating. My point is that it’s arbitrary, so birth is just as good as the 9 months before it ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/68 "2010-01-25T16:47:36Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > I find birth to be a pretty arbitrary watershed moment as there is no significant developmental progress in the minutes/hours it takes for a baby to be born. I’m surprised this statement hasn’t been directly challenged yet. There are tremendous changes in the circulatory system when a baby is born, mainly to switch from using the umbilical cord to using the lungs: > **[Adaptation to extrauterine life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_to_extrauterine_life)** > > At the end of pregnancy, the fetus must take the journey of childbirth to leave the reproductive mother. Upon its entry to the air-breathing world, the newborn must begin to adjust to life outside the uterus. This is true for all viviparous animals; this article discusses humans as the most-researched example.\[citation needed\] > The outside environment is a drastic change for the neonate; therefore, the neonate must be assessed frequently and thoroughly. The Apgar scale is an assessment performe... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/69 "2010-01-25T17:00:11Z")
I’ll admit I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but here’s my response to the OP. There’s biblical authority. The Bible repeatedly equates breath with life. A baby doesn’t draw breath until it is born and that’s one point at which you can say life begins. Stepping beyond the metaphor, this points to another major distinction. Prior to birth, a baby is dependant on its mother for its breath (and other life support). The mother and the child are connected as a single unit. When a decision is made for one or the other, that decison is made for both. Birth represents the moment when they become two seperate entities and you can treat them individually. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/70 "2010-01-25T17:01:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I was exaggerating. My point is that it’s arbitrary, so birth is just as good as the 9 months before it Except that it isn’t arbitrary. It’s very specific and demonstrable. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/71 "2010-01-25T17:05:02Z")
Brain development in children. > **[Neuroscience For Kids - Brain Development](http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html)** > > Intended for elementary and secondary school students and teachers who are interested in learning about the nervous system and brain with hands on activities, experiments and information. > [@](#): > > The brain grows at an amazing rate during development. At times during brain development, 250,000 neurons are added every minute! At birth, almost all the neurons that the brain will ever have are present. However, the brain continues to grow for a few years after birth. By the age of 2 years old, the brain is about 80% of the adult size. Much of neurological development has already occurred before birth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/72 "2010-01-25T17:40:42Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [Infanticide - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Greece_and_Rome) > I was thinking more of Romulus and Remus. I’m quite aware the Spartans did it, but that is not related to the naming practices of Judaism and Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/73 "2010-01-25T17:45:01Z")
Viability. Sadly, that’s not a bright line itself, but regardless of brain activity I don’t think an organism that isn’t self supporting counts as a life. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/74 "2010-01-25T17:50:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I was exaggerating. My point is that it’s arbitrary, so birth is just as good as the 9 months before it except, not. there’s little definitiveness as to exactly when impregnation occurred, when the zygote got implanted into the uterine wall, etc. etc. birth is not arbitrary at all. it’s a discreet occurrence that is irrefutable and simple to delineate. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/75 "2010-01-25T17:59:21Z")
So is one’s 12th birthday. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/76 "2010-01-25T18:01:03Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > So is one’s 12th birthday. what is that referring to, again? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/77 "2010-01-25T18:04:38Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > P.S. Good luck in your situation, whatever it may be. My situation is two healthy kids one of which is now taking a nap after finishing a 3-day long project making a 3-foot tall giraffe out of household items. Thanks for your concern (said without a drop of sarcasm). Which is not to mean that I dodged the bullet and let the others behind me worry about this. > [@pedescribe](#): > > Okay, then where would you draw the line? I’m not trying to trap you, I swear. I know you are not. Here we are in good will. Where to draw the line is the whole point of this thread. I don’t have an answer. I hope to come out of it close to having one. As it stands it is a big fat line between the third trimester and 2 years of age. Not terribly useful for practical purposes. > [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > If attempting to understand why human life should be valued and what makes life human results in devaluing it, so be it. Thank you for “getting” the point of the thread. > [@pedescribe](#): > > But if a fetus is apperified out of the womb for 1.5 minutes, it will probably die, depending on how far along it is. Certainly, an early fetus would die Precisely the point. This “apperification” is called birth when the baby is viable. The more important point, and the one where my question hinges is whether this baby would know he is dying if left unassisted. Someone mentioned Stephen Hawking, if you unplugged him, he would know he is dying. There would be existential anguish over it, no matter how he feels about it. Would the baby know he is dying? And I don’t mean in the way mice and turtles deal with death. Crippled, animals struggle trying to do what they need to do until they just cannot and then lie there and carry on doing what little they can (breathing at least) until they die. At what point does a baby just stop to function at death and becomes aware of the fact that his existence is coming to an end? > [@suranyi](#): > > I’m surprised this statement hasn’t been directly challenged yet. There are tremendous changes in the circulatory system when a baby is born, mainly to switch from using the umbilical cord to using the lungs: > > [Adaptation to extrauterine life - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_to_extrauterine_life) Is blood circulation what makes us human? All animals do that. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll admit I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but here’s my response to the OP. > > There’s biblical authority… I gather that the OP is one of those posts you didn’t read. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/78 "2010-01-25T18:06:57Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Is blood circulation what makes us human? All animals do that. I’m challenging the idea that nothing significant physically happens in a baby at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/79 "2010-01-25T18:10:05Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I’m challenging the idea that nothing significant physically happens in a baby at birth. Steven Wright’s diary from when he was an infant: > [@](#): > > Day One: Still tired from the move. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/80 "2010-01-25T18:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I gather that the OP is one of those posts you didn’t read. I read what you said. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with what you said. Either your conclusions or your rules. If you ask people what their beliefs are on a subject that’s generally based on law and religion, you’re going to get answers that reference law and religion. Deal with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=5)