# About the significance of birth as a landmark moment in attaining personhood. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295 "2010-01-24T23:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/101 "2010-01-26T18:21:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; babies have a very limited understanding of, well, anything. They don’t appear to even understand that objects persist when hidden from sight, or that other creatures have feelings and awareness. You can’t understand death until you understand that others are alive and independent of your awareness, first. Right. Even after having become an “individual” at birth, babies don’t see themselves as individuals. That comes later (or that’s what I remember from the parenting books we read at that time when). As for a baby’s perception of permanence: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78YfAbYG-r8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78YfAbYG-r8) It may be for laughs but as a parent I tell you it is not that far from reality. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/102 "2010-01-26T18:27:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You so obviously didn’t understand my argument that there really isn’t anything for me to say to this. My entire point was that anyone who is human is a person. Impossible - you yourself said that wasn’t your position. Cite: > [@mswas](#): > > This is a cheap debating tactic. I’m not arguing that side of the position. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/103 "2010-01-26T18:29:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well offering my personal opinion on it, I think personhood is conferred by sentience. Thus, a thinking machine like a Cylon is a person in the way a brain-dead comatose human body is not. I agree with this, but let’s keep machines out of it for now. The brain-dead comatose person, OTOH, is a very pertinent case. I am sure that most people who would agree to killing (no sense in putting make up on it and call it euthanasia) a comatose person would object to killing a baby born with some truly crippling and life-threatening/shortening condition. Why? How are the cases different. In both cases, there is no awareness of the incoming death. In both cases, prolonging life only means more expense, suffering and anguish to those “outside”. Why defend a life that won’t defend itself? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/104 "2010-01-26T18:36:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Just for the record, the OP’s premise that there is a legal distinction about the status of an infant in the moments before and after birth is a false one. Elective abortion is illegal in the 3rd trimester. The correct comparison is between a born baby and a 2nd trimester fetus. Agreed. Although the illegality of 3rd trimester abortions varies with locality, it seems that it is widespread enough along the civilized world that there is little point in considering it. The point remains the same, though. At some point there is a day where you cannot choose to terminate pregnancy while the day before you could. This is forcibly so and it happens with everything. Still, I would like to see debated exactly what is it that we are looking for when we fix that time. Is it viability? Some degree of brain function? What do we want to call that thing that makes us a person worth defending? At what point are we made more than a lizard or a bumblebee and what is it that makes us different? ETA: For the sake of comparison. What changes at 18 and we turn into adults is a sense of responsibility. I doesn’t happen at 18 in all places and it doesn’t happen at 18 to all people, but that is what we are hoping for. Our assessment of it often fails but we know what we want. This is why sometimes judges choose to try minors as adults, in recognition of cases where the standard deadline fails and the case-by-case handling of it makes more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/105 "2010-01-26T18:46:11Z")
Well, if you’re prepared to leave such decisions (i.e. whether or not to try a juvenile as an adult) to the discretion of experts like judges, may as well do the same for abortion and doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/106 "2010-01-26T18:49:52Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > I agree with this, but let’s keep machines out of it for now. The brain-dead comatose person, OTOH, is a very pertinent case. I am sure that most people who would agree to killing (no sense in putting make up on it and call it euthanasia) a comatose person would object to killing a baby born with some truly crippling and life-threatening/shortening condition. Why? How are the cases different. In both cases, there is no awareness of the incoming death. In both cases, prolonging life only means more expense, suffering and anguish to those “outside”. Why defend a life that won’t defend itself? There are a number of problems with this attempt to locate some kind of incosistent philosophy. For one thing, there is a difference between “killing” a braindead human body, and just not keeping it alive. Secondly, you have to be more specific about what kind of conditions a baby might be born with. I don’t think your assumption is correct that people who would support allowing a braindead person to die, would not also support allowing a braindead baby to die. A baby which was in some kind of severe pain and had no chance of survival would likely not find advocates for active euthanization, but would find advocates for doing anything possible to relieve its suffering before it died naturally. the same would be true for an adult in that situation, with the only difference being that an adult might have the ability (and right) to want to actively end his own life, or at least reject life-prolonging treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/107 "2010-01-26T18:51:54Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure;12039162… **Sapo** might usefully define personhood in a tighter manner, but I think it’s clear that he’s concerned with more fundamental aspects of humanity, the least sophisticated ones that nonetheless distinguish us from nonprimate animals…[/QUOTE] Thanks for making that point (and also for excluding primates. Those are a different ball of wax that will make for a great future thread). I agree with all that all human life is worth saving. The question is what makes a life human? Stepping on cockroaches is not offensive to anyone (yes, I know, Jainists). What makes a human different from a cockroach? More specifically to this thread, when in the path from zygote to cadaver do we become humans? We all agree that zygotes are not human (yes, I know, whatever they call themselves) and we all agree that functioning adults are human. When do we cross the line? It will not be a sharp line (personhood… now!). It will not be the same for all individuals. It may be a line determined by something we cannot measure adequately with out current technology or ever. That’s all fine. But we have to at least know what is it that we are shooting for. As I made the case for adulthood. In some places you are an adult at 13, in some at 21. Some people mature earlier than others. Some never do. Still, we know what is it that we want to see in an adult. We want to see maturity, responsibility, awareness of the rights of others. We cannot measure all those to 15 decimal places but we know what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/108 "2010-01-26T18:55:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if you’re prepared to leave such decisions (i.e. whether or not to try a juvenile as an adult) to the discretion of experts like judges, may as well do the same for abortion and doctors. If you are a parent and you have ever responded to “he is just a kid” with “he should know better” then you have vested yourself with that power at some point. We are all judges in our daily lives. “Professional” judges exist because we have agreed to let them arbiter matters where we cannot agree, but we judge on our own a lot and did for everything before “inventing” “professional” judges. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/109 "2010-01-26T18:56:14Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Agreed. Although the illegality of 3rd trimester abortions varies with locality, it seems that it is widespread enough along the civilized world that there is little point in considering it. > > The point remains the same, though. At some point there is a day where you cannot choose to terminate pregnancy while the day before you could. This is forcibly so and it happens with everything. Still, I would like to see debated exactly what is it that we are looking for when we fix that time. > > Is it viability? Some degree of brain function? What do we want to call that thing that makes us a person worth defending? At what point are we made more than a lizard or a bumblebee and what is it that makes us different? > > ETA: For the sake of comparison. What changes at 18 and we turn into adults is a sense of responsibility. I doesn’t happen at 18 in all places and it doesn’t happen at 18 to all people, but that is what we are hoping for. Our assessment of it often fails but we know what we want. This is why sometimes judges choose to try minors as adults, in recognition of cases where the standard deadline fails and the case-by-case handling of it makes more sense. A person has a different sense of responsibility one second before his 18th birthday than one second afterwards? The primary legal and philsophical reason for designating birth as the threshold for “personhood” (though some protection really starts earlier than that) is that it’s the moment when it’s no longer inside another human being. Pretty simple really. That’s the moment when there is no longer any conflict of rights with another person. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/110 "2010-01-26T18:56:41Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > I agree with this, but let’s keep machines out of it for now. The brain-dead comatose person, OTOH, is a very pertinent case. I am sure that most people who would agree to killing (no sense in putting make up on it and call it euthanasia) a comatose person would object to killing a baby born with some truly crippling and life-threatening/shortening condition. Why? How are the cases different. In both cases, there is no awareness of the incoming death. In both cases, prolonging life only means more expense, suffering and anguish to those “outside”. Why defend a life that won’t defend itself? You would actually be wrong. Pro-Life advocates are just as against living will style euthanasia as they are against abortion. The Catholic Church has just made some kind of edict to end euthanasia in Catholic hospitals. How that will play out legally I am unsure. I wonder if Catholic churches will believe that they have an obligation to provide radical life extension. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/111 "2010-01-26T18:59:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For one thing, there is a difference between “killing” a braindead human body, and just not keeping it alive. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. If you “not keep alive” your baby because he has cerebral palsy you will be tried the same as if you suffocate him with a pillow. All babies need to be kept alive with a mountain of care. Parents are never free to not keep them alive the way you can withdraw care from a terminal patient. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/112 "2010-01-26T19:03:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A person has a different sense of responsibility one second before his 18th birthday than one second afterwards?.. You may have typed this while I typed post#107 but that’s exactly the opposite of what I am saying. I am saying that even while the onset of responsibility comes at all different ages for different people and is not something that switches on instantaneously, at least we know what we are looking for. We ballpark it differently in different locations but we all more or less agree in what we want to see. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/113 "2010-01-26T19:05:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You would actually be wrong. Pro-Life advocates are just as against living will style euthanasia as they are against abortion. The Catholic Church has just made some kind of edict to end euthanasia in Catholic hospitals. How that will play out legally I am unsure. I wonder if Catholic churches will believe that they have an obligation to provide radical life extension. I am not saying that those who oppose one would not oppose the other. I am saying that some that would approve of one could still oppose the other. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/114 "2010-01-26T19:18:17Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. If you “not keep alive” your baby because he has cerebral palsy you will be tried the same as if you suffocate him with a pillow. And nobody would advocate for either, so what is your point? I’m talking about keeping bodies artificially alive with machines after the brains are already dead. > [@](#): > > All babies need to be kept alive with a mountain of care. Parents are never free to not keep them alive the way you can withdraw care from a terminal patient This is actually false. There are circumstances where parents are allowed to reject artificially life-extending treatment and allow a baby to die naturally. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/115 "2010-01-26T19:20:55Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > I am not saying that those who oppose one would not oppose the other. I am saying that some that would approve of one could still oppose the other. Fair enough. I am against abortions for moral reasons, but I am also against restricting choice for moral reasons. My rationale is that you cannot protect a fetus from its Mother. As long as the fetus is a parasite, then the host can make a choice regarding its survival. I do not share the same sort of compunction about euthanasia. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/116 "2010-01-26T19:24:36Z")
Let’s consider a couple of cases. A child is born with some crippling defect. Failure to intervene promptly will result in the child’s death. It may take a while but it is certain to happen in the first month. If intervened, the baby may or may not be saved and might result in a life of health complications. Should the parents be allowed to withhold treatment? Should the parents be responsible for the (expensive and uninsured) care of that baby while death comes? Down’s Syndrome. It has been mentioned a couple of times. Many will agree that its early diagnosis is a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy. The reality is that most kids with Down can live just fine with no specialized medical care. It takes a ton of love and patience and care to raise one, but no advanced machines, no surgeries, no fancy drugs. With love most of them live happy lives. There really is no excuse to terminate a fetus with Down other that the parents not wanting to deal with the hassle (Yes, I know some people invoke some risks to the mother). Yet because it can be screened early (in time for legal abortion) they are terminated as a matter of routine. Here lies my discomfort with all this. Technology is sitting right at the point where things change and effecting our perception of these changes. Our ability to detect undesirable traits in a fetus and our ability to keep an early baby alive are all over the boundary where that fetus becomes human ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/117 "2010-01-26T19:32:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > …My rationale is that you cannot protect a fetus from its Mother. As long as the fetus is a parasite, then the host can make a choice regarding its survival… Here we agree and it solves the problem of abortion (heck even 3rd trimester abortions would pass under this argument). It still does nothing to answer the issue of whether this fetus is a person or not. It says it is fine to terminate pregnancy but doesn’t clarify if that termination is a self-defense killing or a tissue extirpation. The answer may be practically irrelevant since it is allowed in either case but this is not a discussion of abortion and women’s rights, and it is not a practical answer I am looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/118 "2010-01-26T19:35:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m talking about keeping bodies artificially alive with machines after the brains are already dead. And I am asking whether the brain of a baby is “already alive”. A “not yet alive brain” is the same as an “already dead” one. Is that baby brain all there in a way pigeon brains are not? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/119 "2010-01-26T19:37:39Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > And I am asking whether the brain of a baby is “already alive”. A “not yet alive brain” is the same as an “already dead” one. > > Is that baby brain all there in a way pigeon brains are not? It’s already there. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/120 "2010-01-26T19:40:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s already there. So what? Don’t play games. Is it functioning in a way that is significantly different from a frog? Is it self aware? Does it know it exists? Does it think “Day One: Still tired from the move”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=7)