# About the significance of birth as a landmark moment in attaining personhood. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295 "2010-01-24T23:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/121 "2010-01-26T19:49:24Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Let’s consider a couple of cases. > > A child is born with some crippling defect. Failure to intervene promptly will result in the child’s death. It may take a while but it is certain to happen in the first month. If intervened, the baby may or may not be saved and might result in a life of health complications. Should the parents be allowed to withhold treatment? Should the parents be responsible for the (expensive and uninsured) care of that baby while death comes? That depends on the level of intervention and chances of survival. For the most part, yes, the parents would be responsible for treatment, unless and until the treatment becomes futile, prolongs suffering with no chance of recovery or the baby is already brain dead. > [@](#): > > Down’s Syndrome. It has been mentioned a couple of times. Many will agree that its early diagnosis is a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy. There is no such thing as a NON-valid reason for abortion. No justification is required, but it’s not true at all that just because soemone is pro-choice that they would opt to terminate a pregnancy that would result in a Downs Syndrome baby. > [@](#): > > The reality is that most kids with Down can live just fine with no specialized medical care. It takes a ton of love and patience and care to raise one, but no advanced machines, no surgeries, no fancy drugs. With love most of them live happy lives. Irrelevant, since we aren’t talking about kids, we’re talking about fetuses. > [@](#): > > There really is no excuse to terminate a fetus with Down other that the parents not wanting to deal with the hassle (Yes, I know some people invoke some risks to the mother). Yet because it can be screened early (in time for legal abortion) they are terminated as a matter of routine. No “excuse” is required. So what if some people want to take a mulligan on a a pregnancy which might result in a DS baby? What do you care? There’s no victim, so how is it your business. > [@](#): > > Here lies my discomfort with all this. Technology is sitting right at the point where things change and effecting our perception of these changes. Our ability to detect undesirable traits in a fetus and our ability to keep an early baby alive are all over the boundary where that fetus becomes human What do you mean by “human?” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/122 "2010-01-26T19:51:18Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Don’t play games. Is it functioning in a way that is significantly different from a frog? Is it self aware? Does it know it exists? Does it think “Day One: Still tired from the move”? I don’t understand what you’re getting at. From my understanding, it has some degree of sentience, but not yet what we would call “self-awareness.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/123 "2010-01-26T19:52:31Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > but this is not a discussion of abortion The hell it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/124 "2010-01-26T20:03:33Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Here we agree and it solves the problem of abortion (heck even 3rd trimester abortions would pass under this argument). It still does nothing to answer the issue of whether this fetus is a person or not. It says it is fine to terminate pregnancy but doesn’t clarify if that termination is a self-defense killing or a tissue extirpation. The answer may be practically irrelevant since it is allowed in either case but this is not a discussion of abortion and women’s rights, and it is not a practical answer I am looking for. Well I have to say that I am not terribly sympathetic to late-term abortions, and don’t really care if the window for the operation closes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/125 "2010-01-26T20:09:14Z")
“Late-term abortion” has no medical definition. That’s a political word used to refer to anything after the first trimester. Third trimester abortions don’t happen except in highly exigent circumstances, so the dicussion of the difference between a newborn baby and a nine month fetus is a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/126 "2010-01-26T22:10:49Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > If you are a parent and you have ever responded to “he is just a kid” with “he should know better” then you have vested yourself with that power at some point. We are all judges in our daily lives. “Professional” judges exist because we have agreed to let them arbiter matters where we cannot agree, but we judge on our own a lot and did for everything before “inventing” “professional” judges. I’m sure that seems real profound and all, but it doesn’t answer my question regarding leaving abortion up to medical professionals. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/127 "2010-01-26T22:15:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Late-term abortion” has no medical definition. That’s a political word used to refer to anything after the first trimester. Irrelevant. It has a meaning, that you just defined. > [@](#): > > Third trimester abortions don’t happen except in highly exigent circumstances, so the dicussion of the difference between a newborn baby and a nine month fetus is a red herring. Why don’t you go back and read what you’re responding to. You might get it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/128 "2010-01-26T22:23:29Z")
Heck, it’s not a label of any great significance. I use “late-term” to describe post-viability abortions (i.e. past 24 weeks or so, though if an abortion is considered under these circumstances, odds are the fetus isn’t viable at all for some reason) and I’m okay with them staying perfectly legal, medical necessity or not. Mainly, I see it as a useful alternative to “partial-birth”, which is a bullshit label, inaccurate and inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/129 "2010-01-26T22:45:47Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Please, please, please, pretty please. Don’t. Not here. I specifically asked to keep religion out of this. Sorry! I withdraw my post. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/130 "2010-01-26T23:06:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I have to say that I am not terribly sympathetic to late-term abortions, and don’t really care if the window for the operation closes. That’s nice. Is your thinking on this matter because you think that “late term” fetuses are likely to have crossed a meaningful threshold regarding their status as people, that an “early term” fetus is likely not to have, or did you develop this opinion through methods irrelevent to the current discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/131 "2010-01-27T00:05:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The hell it isn’t. No it isn’t. It just happens that part of the range of third trimester to 2 years (which we kind of agreed to at some earlier point) where the fetus/baby becomes a person happens inside a belly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/132 "2010-01-27T00:11:54Z")
No, it happens at birth. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/133 "2010-01-27T01:05:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it happens at birth. I think it’s technically accurate to say that birth usually happens between the start of the third trimester of gestation and the post-birth age of two years, so I’m not sure a “No” was merited. The point of “personhood” obviously depends on how you define “person”. Of course, I think this is only partially relevent to the discussion - I might be more interested in the brain state of the critter in question. If I’m willing to put the axe to a brain dead person who’s unambiguously a person, then it would seem that brain state is more important than personhood, no? Problem is, brain state’s problematic to detect externally. It’s not enough just to _have_ a brain state; cows have brain states and we’ll kill and _eat_ cows. So we’re logically forced into the position of only\* valuing the fetus if it’s achieved a good _enough_ brain state, which is impossible to detect. Uh-oh. - (Excepting “potential person” arguments, which are horseshit.) Brain state is also problematic from a legislative standpoint for three reasons: 1. undetectable, as noted. 2. ambiguous - can you _prove_ that that fetus didn’t get brainy enough when you weren’t looking? 3. ignores the important fact of the mother’s status - some of us aren’t keen on making women into brood mares, which obligates us to make it possible to end the pregnancy at any time\*\*. \*\* (This doesn’t obligate us to actually abort the fetus - if the thing is developed to the point of viability, we could at least theoretically extract it alive. This goes double if birth has already taken place.) So, within the third-trimester-to-two-years range, one can plausible argue that abortions must be allowed until birth, due to issues of womb control. The point of birth is also very detectable and ambiguous, so from an abortion-legalization standpoint birth certainly has a lot going for it. Whether or _not_ the fetus can be called a “person” (by some definition) earlier than birth, even. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/134 "2010-01-27T14:00:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it happens at birth. Verbum Dio. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/135 "2010-01-27T17:44:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m sure that seems real profound and all, but it doesn’t answer my question regarding leaving abortion up to medical professionals. It was not a question. It was a statement and it was you who made it. You defend it then. I said that using adulthood as an example, there is a more or less agreed on standard of what we look for in an adult (sense of responsibility, etc). We have a rule of thumb (legal age) of when that happens since we are not able to measure it with any precision yet we understand that there are cases were the rule of thumb doesn’t apply (criminals at age 17.9) and we have a system to handle those (judges can choose to try minors as adult). From there you jumped to doctors should make abortion decisions. You show your math. My second response was meant to show that is not just judges who get to make those decisions. We all gauge the mental maturity of our children and act on it. When a 2 year old whacks you in the face with a rattler, you know he didn’t mean it as an act of aggression. When a 19 year old punches another in the face, you know he did. When a 5 year old punches his little sister, only the parent knows whether the kid is aware of what he is doing or not. And the lines are different for different things. Hitting, cheating in a test, lying, all come clear in a child’s mind at different ages. But don’t get too hung up on what is only meant to be an example and let’s focus on the case at hand. When does a fetus/child become a person (and don’t cop out with a legal answer). When is that child aware of his own existence as a human? When does the narrative of self begin? Again, I don’t expect an answer in the form of a fixed time as it will vary among individuals. I also don’t expect an answer that will allow us to conduct a definitive pass/fail test that we can start applying to all kids. Anything that has the same degree of precision that we get from “responsibility makes the adult” will be ok for “x makes the child a person”. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/136 "2010-01-27T17:49:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Third trimester abortions don’t happen except in highly exigent circumstances, so the dicussion of the difference between a newborn baby and a nine month fetus is a red herring. I agreed to that in post #104 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/137 "2010-01-28T08:29:20Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > But don’t get too hung up on what is only meant to be an example and let’s focus on the case at hand. When does a fetus/child become a person (and don’t cop out with a legal answer). When is that child aware of his own existence as a human? When does the narrative of self begin? Well it’s certainly after the age of 1. Few remember anything from when they were 2. But somebody versed in college-level developmental psychology could give a better answer. But we’re talking about humans after all, so we need a safety margin. I say that thought processes are _necessary_ conditions for humanity and personhood, though they certainly are not sufficient. I would set the _earliest_ possible boundary for personhood in the third trimester. But at the moment of birth, we enter the social world – which arguably is another highly relevant aspect of humanity. Certain biological transitions occur as well. So to say that birth isn’t a milestone seems ludicrous. Still, I again have to defer to the developmental experts with regards to its importance relative to other milestones. Do any bio-Dopers know of any terrific links? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/138 "2010-01-28T17:04:44Z")
Hold on to that thought. I will start a new thread on that specific thought since it came to this thread as a bit of a sideline and I am afraid as this thread was already pegged by many as an abortion thread (and one where you cannot just dump the usual one liners at that). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/139 "2010-01-28T18:19:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > That’s nice. Is your thinking on this matter because you think that “late term” fetuses are likely to have crossed a meaningful threshold regarding their status as people, that an “early term” fetus is likely not to have, or did you develop this opinion through methods irrelevent to the current discussion? Mostly I am against abortion as a whole, but think that it’s a necessary but disgusting evil. If you can’t decide to have the fetus aborted in the first trimester, as I see it, you had your chance, you missed the window. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295/140 "2010-01-28T21:23:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Mostly I am against abortion as a whole, but think that it’s a necessary but disgusting evil. If you can’t decide to have the fetus aborted in the first trimester, as I see it, you had your chance, you missed the window. No offense, but I see that as “irrelevent to the current discussion”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-significance-of-birth-as-a-landmark-moment-in-attaining-personhood/526295.md?page=8)