# About the Vorkosigan books **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [November 16, 2025, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913 "2025-11-16T23:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2026, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/221 "2026-06-12T23:27:42Z")
True - but how many 4-year-olds does Aral know? Miles, Gregor and the Koudelkas, all of whom get strong messages from their parents to excel and be seen to excel. And a four-year-old is old enough to pick up the message that he’s not supposed to be the center of attention. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2026, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/222 "2026-06-12T23:30:04Z")
It’s an interesting theory. Or may be Ivan was just a late bloomer, he realized everybody was underestimating him and decided to play along because it kept him away from the imperial camp stool ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2026, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/223 "2026-06-12T23:36:39Z")
I have always thought that Miles and Ivan were a perfect embodiment of what happens when one boy grows up with a father who continually wins the political game, and the other grows up without a father who was killed by it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2026, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/224 "2026-06-12T23:43:36Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I just have this vision of him eventually asking how he got his name and me dumping 19 books on his bed. “Get reading, kid!” He’s approaching double digits right now, right? That point might be coming soon. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/225 "2026-06-13T00:01:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ivan isn’t actually as dumb as he seems. He’s actually fairly smart. He just applies his intelligence exclusively in the pursuit of laziness. Not quite exclusively. Ivan comes through when he sees that it matters. And Ivan really does not want to be seen as anyone in the line of succession of Barrayaran politics. Which strikes me as a sign of intelligence. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > Ivan has life-goals that Miles doesn’t recognize as being goals at all. This. And one of the things I admire about Bujold is that she does (eventually) appear to recognize them as goals worth having. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/226 "2026-06-13T00:27:17Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And Ivan really does not want to be seen as anyone in the line of succession of Barrayaran politics. Which strikes me as a sign of intelligence. Or prudence, at least. Which is _definitely_ a quality Miles was shortchanged on. > [@TruCelt](#): > > I have always thought that Miles and Ivan were a perfect embodiment of what happens when one boy grows up with a father who continually wins the political game, and the other grows up without a father who was killed by it. Not to mention that as early as _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ Ivan is nearly killed himself (by ship sabotage) as part of political machinations not even aimed at him personally. Half the time he becomes even tangentially involved in politics - usually unintentionally - it endangers him. So he keeps getting the childhood lesson that politics is dangerous reinforced. Now Miles, he responds to obstacles like that by doubling down until he wins; Ivan doesn’t actually _care_ about “winning” at that game, so he just tries to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/227 "2026-06-13T01:13:38Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > On the other hand Ivan was noticeably not very bright as a toddler, IIRC Aral says something like “If he was trying to fool everybody at that age he was the most machiavellic 4 year old in history” I just hit that quote. > [@](#): > > “He only plays the fool. He may in fact be the least foolish among us.” > > “It’s an optimistic theory, but if Ivan is so calculating, how can he have been like this since he could walk?” the Count asked plaintively. “You’d make of him a fiendishly Machiavellian five-year-old, dear Captain.” ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/228 "2026-06-13T01:59:39Z")
Ivan has long been my second-favourite character in the series. (Simon Illyan is my real favourite.) ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/229 "2026-06-13T02:07:50Z")
Favourite Vorkosigan characters (avoiding characters from books **Chronos** hasn’t read): 1. Miles 2. Aral 3. Cordelia 4. Mark 5. Ky Tung ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/230 "2026-06-13T02:25:34Z")
Entirely IMHO, but part of the Miles v. Ivan difference, is that being Vor, being part of Barrayar, being part of his lineage is _very_ important to Miles, even if his life would be immensely easier if it wasn’t. [see the comments earlier about his difficulties not in finding long term companionship, but finding anyone willing to do it if it meant staying _there_] Ivan is smart enough, or at least, not driven to the same obsession with being accepted and being part of a lineage. He is, of course, proud and happy to take advantage of it, but for someone without Miles galactic education, he is strangely indifferent to the pageantry and horror of it all. It isn’t in any meaningful way a part of his goals. Miles must not only win, and be _seen_ to be winning, but must do so at **Home** (cap and bold intended) for it to be “real” to him. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/231 "2026-06-13T03:15:41Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > he is strangely indifferent to the pageantry and horror of it all. I don’t think it’s strange at all. What that pageantry and honor of it all is to Ivan is a plaque in the street that the groundcars drive over. And a father who isn’t there. (Or did you type “horror” on purpose? “Pageantry and horror” is probably a pretty good description of how Cordelia sees it.) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/232 "2026-06-13T06:46:37Z")
Yes, I was deliberate in choosing horror. He is unmoved (okay, I exaggerate a bit) by both the continuity and chaos - I don’t see he’s supremely selfish, but it all could be classified as “old bore Vor stuff”. Given the choice, _Ivan_ would be one who would totally benefit from getting an opportunity to go study on Beta for years, getting by on looks, charm and family money and living the life of a perpetual well-off student. You know, the sort that gets to their late 20’s without finishing their masters because it’s the life he wants to live rather than the education he’s seeking. But, for better and worse, he gets dragged along by _Miles_ and the inertia of the Vor. He _wants_ to avoid it, and is in fact skilled at finding ways to do well with the least possible effort. he’s like a lot of the anecdotal characters Lazarus Long (Heinlein) loves to cite - get in trouble with the daughter of his commanding officer, then arrange to marry said daughter, and boom, the problem becomes a plus with an ally in command! [not literally in Ivan’s case, but he’s skilled with people] Lots of stories give the military trope of a stupid / smart axis, and a lazy / energetic axis. You can work with Smart / Energetic, appeal to Smart / Lazy, get around stupid / Lazy, with Stupid / Energetic being a disaster (see Miles first commanding officer for the last!). Ivan is _peak_ Smart / Lazy and knows how to make it work, in large part because he feels no obligation to the Game of Vor(thrones) and it’s expectations of him! My read, IMHO, YMMV, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2026, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/233 "2026-06-13T07:16:50Z")
What was the quote about Ivan, something like “Being the dumbest member of an incredibly brilliant family doesn’t mean you aren’t highly intelligent?” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2026, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/234 "2026-06-14T15:58:26Z")
Oh, and just to get a prediction on the record: The Doctors Durona who have been reviving Miles are Baron Bharaputra’s wife and her clones. They’ve been doing the brain transplants, except they’re secretly not doing them: They’re letting the rich bastards die and releasing the clones as them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/235 "2026-06-15T12:24:41Z")
OK, well, I was partly right. I do think, though, that pretending to do transplants but actually just letting the clones go free with their own brains would be an interesting angle of attack on the problem: In the short term, you’re saving lives, and in the long term, you’re building up a population of very rich (and hence influential) people who are actually opposed to clone-killing. Or, for a more direct approach, let’s look at those 50 kids that Mark saved. Every one of them is, by the laws of most galactic jurisdictions, the closest relative of a very rich person who’s getting close to dying of old age. Surely, they all stand to inherit a lot of wealth fairly soon. That’ll still produce the effect of a cadre of rich people opposed to clone-killing. Some more thoughts: It wouldn’t actually be all that hard for Miles to find a suitable future countess. It takes Mark what, a half-hour, to find a good Barrayaran woman who’s interested in him, and the only reason she hasn’t already made a move for Miles is that she knows that her two older sisters are ahead of her in line. I think Miles has a touch of the same conundrum that his father had, that he can only fall in love with a sufficiently-dangerous woman. And a question: Why is Ivan not already Count Vorpatril? His father was a count, his father is now dead, and he’s of age. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/236 "2026-06-15T13:02:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And a question: Why is Ivan not already Count Vorpatril? His father was a count, his father is now dead, and he’s of age I think this is detailed in later books, but I don’t think it’s worthy of spoiler tags. The Counts Vorpatril are a separate branch of the family. As I recall, Ivan’s title of Lord Vorpatril comes from his grandfather’s marriage to the sister (or daughter? Or niece?) of the then Emperor. A close enough relationship for Ivan to be pulled into plots if someone wanted to use him as a figurehead. Or if he were ambitious and crazy enough to try for the imperial camp stool himself. Instead, Ivan is happy to be a party boy “skating” through his career, and keeping his head down. Except when his cousin shows up … ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/237 "2026-06-15T13:57:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I do think, though, that pretending to do transplants but actually just letting the clones go free with their own brains would be an interesting angle of attack on the problem: In the short term, you’re saving lives, and in the long term, you’re building up a population of very rich (and hence influential) people who are actually opposed to clone-killing. Could they actually pass, though? Physically, of course, they’d be exactly as expected. But the clones have had almost no education, while the supposed brain transplant donors have decades or centuries of experience. One case, or maybe two if the second were after several ordinary transplants, might be passed off as brain damage during the operation (though that would certainly put the clone at significant disadvantage and risk of takeover); but repeated cases would seem to make it clear that something else was going wrong, either deliberately or through incompetence, and nobody would go to them for transplants after that. Also, human nature being what it is, I don’t think you could count on all the clones being opposed to the brain transplants if they themselves would eventually be the ones benefiting, as opposed to the ones being killed. Plenty of underdogs of various sorts who later found themselves in positions of power have historically been perfectly happy to oppress or murder somebody else: though of course it doesn’t take everybody that way, and some instead do wind up as vehement justice fighters. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/238 "2026-06-15T14:18:39Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > As I recall, Ivan’s title of Lord Vorpatril comes from his grandfather’s marriage to the sister (or daughter? Or niece?) of the then Emperor. Niece. Younger daughter of Prince Xav, who was half-brother of Mad Emperor Yuri. The older daughter married Miles’ grandfather (Count Piotr). ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/239 "2026-06-15T14:32:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and I have a pretty good hunch that Thorne already knows, and is deliberately cooperating. Oh Yes. There’s one bit where Bel talks to “Naismith” and emphasizes that they _really like_ this mission, that it’s a good thing they’re going to save those kids. As if Miles would ever need that kind of reassurance at that point in his life. When I read it, this made it clear that Bel knew who they were actually talking to, and that Mark would need that kind of reassurance after the abusive life he’d suffered. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2026, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913/240 "2026-06-15T14:38:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You’ve heard the phrase about privilege that “he was born on third base and thinks he hit a home run”? Ivan _knows_ he was born on third base and has no interest in dodging sniper fire (and possibly not metaphorically) to reach home base. Which is particularly amusing, as he was _actually_ born in a dark alley while being chased by people who wanted to kill him and his entire family 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-the-vorkosigan-books/1024913.md?page=13)