# About trump's immunity fantasy **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 17, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229 "2024-01-17T15:45:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/41 "2024-01-19T06:55:10Z")
I won’t. He might freak out and do something unpredictable… like name me as his running-mate. So i won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/42 "2024-01-19T10:39:56Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Was I supposed to assume it was from Trump? Because I believe more people than him are allowed to post there. This may be true, but I honestly can’t think of any time I’ve seen a Truth Social post from anyone else. Is there anyone noteworthy, other than Trump, who posts there? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/43 "2024-01-19T15:33:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So these right wingers don’t worry about how they are damaging the legal system. They feel that they’re the strongest predators around. What they don’t realize is that other people are stronger but are choosing not to use their strength. The legal system is protecting the right wingers because it restrains their opponents. From _A Man for All Seasons_: > [@](#): > > **William Roper** : So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law! > > **Sir Thomas More** : Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? > > **William Roper** : Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that! > > **Sir Thomas More** : Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/44 "2024-01-19T15:41:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If he’s inaugurated the disaster will stop if/when the DoD and the federal law enforcement agencies mutiny and take him out by force. If instead they go along, it’s game over. Well, if his first act in office is to replace all those agency heads and senior officers with sycophants, then the game is over before it starts. Then it would take a revolution from the military rank and file to change things. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/45 "2024-01-19T16:32:43Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I’ve seen a Truth Social post from anyone else. Is there anyone noteworthy, other than Trump, who posts there? Joe Biden! > **[Biden, Now on Truth Social, Decides It’s Time to Troll Trump](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/10/joe-biden-truth-social-decides-its-time-to-troll-trump)** > > After largely shying away from the MAGA-verse, Biden is now leaning into his role as its biggest bugbear. “There’s very little ‘truth’ happening on Truth Social,” says one campaign official, “but at least now it’ll be a little fun.” [https://www.axios.com/2023/10/18/biden-truth-social-followers-trump](https://www.axios.com/2023/10/18/biden-truth-social-followers-trump) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/46 "2024-01-19T17:08:18Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > If he’s inaugurated the disaster will stop if/when the DoD and the federal law enforcement agencies mutiny and take him out by force. If instead they go along, it’s game over. > > Well, if his first act in office is to replace all those agency heads and senior officers with sycophants, then the game is over before it starts. Then it would take a revolution from the military rank and file to change things. IMO you have correctly predicted our future. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/47 "2024-01-19T18:57:05Z")
The flaw in Trump’s argument about immunity can be made clear in logic terms. If “A” = “impeached and convicted by the Senate” and “B” = “may be criminally prosecuted”: The Constitution says IF A THEN B Trump’s lawyer argued that this also means: If ~A THEN ~B, and this does not follow logically. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/48 "2024-01-19T19:46:35Z")
Logic has no place here. Trump and the MAGAts can believe in 4 contradictory things before breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/49 "2024-01-19T19:56:47Z")
You probably know that all military members are obligated by the UCMJ to question any orders that they feel may contrary to military law, and to refuse to carry out any orders that they KNOW are contrary to law. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/50 "2024-01-19T20:40:42Z")
Yes. There will be a great fracturing within DoD if trump tries to use them to do evil. He can unilaterally appoint a traitor scoundrel as a JCS service chief or a regional combined arms commander. Doubtless there are a few bad apples in the upper ranks who’d leap at the chance to play a big role in the takeover. But I sincerely believe the basic righteousness of the rank and file officers and enlisted will not (much) follow through with evil. There will be some initial cooperation in the first hours of confusion while folks tell themselves this is still within normal bounds, but once the reality of what’s being attempted filters through to everyone, I predict the giant death machine simply halts in place and dares anyone from the revolutionary side to make them move. I have rather fewer warm and fuzzies about the constitutional loyalty of the National Guardsmen of the reddest states. I am far more concerned that DEA, BATF, FBI, etc., and the dozens of other shadowy police agencies the feds have will prove much easier to co-opt into being / becoming a domestic force for evil and/or a Praetorian Guard. They don’t have the numbers or firepower DoD has. But they are by training and by temperament far more likely to go along to get along. And far better at the intimidating or arresting civilians thing that will set the tone. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/51 "2024-01-21T17:51:56Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But I sincerely believe the basic righteousness of the rank and file officers and enlisted will not (much) follow through with evil. It’s a particularly human trait to obey an authority figure, and this is I suspect even stronger in the military. See the Milgram Experiment. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/52 "2024-01-21T19:54:12Z")
Granted completely. It will be a very severe litmus test for everyone involved. ~15 years ago I wrote a post in a thread about US nuclear forces and launch orders and such. Speaking to my experiences and attitudes from my time in that biz which was then ~25 years in the past. The idea of receiving an unlawful / insane order simply didn’t exist in my mind way back when as an operator, nor 15 years ago as a reminiscing vet. Not anymore. I have to imagine that after about 2015 anyone in uniform with a brain has considered the possibility of wacky orders coming down. And of course the farther one is up the food chain, the more relevant the question and the heavier the burden of deciding rightly what to do if that push came to that shove. I very deeply hope we don’t get to find out. Even as I’m confident that the bulk will do he right thing, a small minority in the right, i.e. wrong, place doing the wrong thing could do great damage with very long-lasting effects. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/53 "2024-01-21T22:34:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > a small minority in the right, i.e. wrong, place doing the wrong thing could do great damage Paging Gen. Michael Flynn… ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/54 "2024-01-22T11:22:44Z")
No, I don’t want to defend them or their logic skills, but they are arguing If not-A, then not-B. Not-A Therefore not-B. Where A is “was impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate,” and B is “may be criminally prosecuted for acts done while in office.” Or put another way, If B, then A Not-A Therefore Not-B Both are expressions of their argument. It’s not that their argument is logically unsound, it’s that their premise is false. Or at least it may be more complicated than that. I’m not sure that I fully disagree with some concept of immunity applying to the president’s acts while they are in office. But it would require a bit more refinement. I think it would have to be official acts as President, not as a private citizen or candidate, and yes, I think if they were impeached and convicted for such an act, then they could be prosecuted makes sense. All of that is not because I think Trump should have any protection, but because I can see multiple states that would be pleased as punch to indict Biden (or Obama if they could have) once he leaves office for whatever state charges they want to try: Election law violations, fraud, treason, who knows what else they could come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/55 "2024-01-22T12:54:06Z")
This inconsistency must worry politicians greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/56 "2024-01-22T13:27:41Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > You probably know that all military members are obligated by the UCMJ to question any orders that they feel may contrary to military law, and to refuse to carry out any orders that they KNOW are contrary to law. The problem arises, though, when a clever fascist (not necessarily Trump) gives orders that are juuuuuust right in the fuzzy grey area where a soldier or officer truly can’t be sure whether it’s legal or not. You said “feel may be contrary,” but I’d imagine there is still an inbuilt bias to obey in that hierarchy. If a leader ordered, “I want you to massacre innocent civilians,” nearly every American soldier would know to say no. But when or if a leader orders him to do something that is questionable enough to be morally dubious, yet legal enough that the soldier knows that he faces a real risk of court-martial and career consequences if he refuses, that’s when things get interesting (bad.) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/57 "2024-01-22T14:13:49Z")
Yeah, we were told that if we ever chose to disobey what we thought were unlawful orders, we’d better be damn sure we were right. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/58 "2024-01-22T16:02:56Z")
What Trumps team is currently arguing is the Nixonian “It’s a lawful order if the president gives it” I think this will be his argument (cover) going forward when he orders the military to crack down on protesters, or other clearly illegal acts. Trump may not understand this, but you can bet your ass that many who are hoping to be in the top ranks of the new dictatorship understand it. They are laying the groundwork. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/59 "2024-01-22T16:29:34Z")
Milgram has been thoroughly discredited. [Cite](https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/why-almost-everything-you-know-about-milgram-wrong) The defense department did a study that found active duty members to be not politically active enough to matter. Veterans, on the other hand, are more frequently radicalized. Can’t provide the cite until I get home tonight. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229/60 "2024-01-22T16:48:55Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > indict Biden (or Obama if they could have) once he leaves office for whatever state charges they want to try: Election law violations, fraud, treason, who knows what else they could come up with. Grounds to indict Obama? Obviously, Presidentin’ while black. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/about-trumps-immunity-fantasy/996229.md?page=4)