The phrase “violence against women in custody” could very well refer to violence between female prisoners or at hands of guards.
As far as I know, nobody claims prisoners attacked by other prisoners have been “tortured by the state”.
If you have more compelling evidence that Starr tortured her, please present it.
Also, do you think Jack McCoy tortured more people than Jack Bauer?
:: post snipped ::
The above quote is why the hate happens. I don’t know when it began but when either side assumes that the other side disagrees, not for legitimate reasons, but because the other side is too stupid (or unpatriotic, or evil, or whatever) the battle is lost.
The other thing that gets the hate going, and which Naxos is not alone in doing, is assigning motives to other peoples actions without actually listening to why they believe a certain action is correct.
For example:
Once you believe you *know *what the other side is really thinking, regardless of what they actually *do *think, you get to assign any motive you like to their behavior. If they disagree on a position the easy, and intellectually lazy, way to deal with it is to label them evil instead of trying to understand why they believe what they believe.
Sadly too many people on both sides do this these days.
Slee
Politics is a human behavior issue. You can’t claim that a purely subjective claim has to be regarded as potentially true or potentially valid.
When a conservative says that they want to abuse others for financial gain, and a moderate says let’s apply labor laws so that people are not abused, those two positions need a positive stance… you either support it or are against it.
Claiming that conservative abusive and exploitative ideologies and methods are just another ideology that should be treated without considering its claims, is an insult to human intelligence.
I would very much like to engage into a discussion with conservatives that acknowledge their ideological heritage and admit to wanting to abuse other people for their own financial benefit.
They may be true for all I know… nobody knows what the universe is all about… maybe abuse is a good thing. I want them to say that they want to abuse and kill others to satisfy their ego, and then we can talk.
If they refuse to acknowledge that basic fact then they are refuting their own identity.
Well, I think it was not clear :dubious:.
I’m just saying that it was a talk where the subject was “violence against women in custody” once again, Amnesty International took notice of the unfair reasons for being imprisoned, that is all, a reply to the not quite accurate “why is Amnesty International not taking her case”.
He had a “D” in front of his name. Obama had a “D” in front of his name and is black so they hate him even more.
:rolleyes: By that logic I can’t condemn Hitler either; he just wanted Lebensraum for his people!
That’s a silly statement; those are all Communists, not fascists.
You forgot the raping and torturing. A lot of us find just killing, without raping and torturing, to be tacky.
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That would work better as a comeback if we hadn’t infamously engaged in just that in Iraq and elsewhere. We do rape; we do torture; and we do it and promote it as policy. Both for ourselves and our allies.
The flaw in your argument is that it presumes that the other side is never actually that bad. Sometimes they are, and the Republicans are one of those times.
Der Trihs,
Please present evidence that Ken Starr or one of his associates threatened Macdougal with death.
Thank you for conceding that AI doesn’t believe she was tortured.
I don’t know what conservatives are thinking - I can only observe the results of their actions. I can read history and see what our society was like before the Progressive Era and the Civil Rights movement. I can read conservative writers like George Will and William Buckley, both of whom I respect since they appeared to disavow the dirty political tactics of the movement they supported, but I still do not support their strategy regardless of what their motives may have been. I don’t need to understand the beliefs of murderers and thieves (not referencing conservatives - though too many are) to know I do want to associate with them.
And I do know the tenets of conservatism - property rights above human rights, economic liberty even if at the expense of political liberty and social equality. The belief that tradition must be the default as opposed to innovation and experimentation and recognition that one size does not fit all. The belief that politics is about power, and power only, not about providing a forum for civil discourse to work toward a consensus and common goals. Conservatism is about establishing an artificial conformity - often using the power of the state to enforce it.
While I will certainly label individuals as evil (looking at you Cheney), I do not believe conservatism is evil, but it promotes a world view that increases suffering instead of alleviating it. And it does so partly through ignorance, and no small part due to the lack of compassion of those that embrace it and often seem to become its leaders.
:sigh: again, you were wrong regarding your jab on Amnesty international not looking at her case, but whatever makes you feel happy I guess.
No, you provide an alternate explanation why they made her wear a red dress that marked her as a murderess or child molester.
You are clearly the exact sort of person that “plausible deniability” was designed for. Unless you get an outright written confession you aren’t going to admit what they were doing - if then.
Translation, it was foolish of me to imply that Amnesty International thinks Susan Macdougal was tortured. I apologize for doing so.
here’s her testimony on what she was subjected to:
Cached Google page of Truthdig interview
There was no actual waterboarding. So maybe you don’t think that was torture. My standard is, would it be torture if enemies did it to a US covert agent? Yeah, I would say so, mild by the standards of many governments in the Middle East, but the deliberate cruelty of her treatment crossed the line, I’d say.
You don’t have to watch the videos, there’s a transcript underneath them.
:rolleyes:
Meh, what they said was that violence was applied or threatened to her, what is clear to all is that you are happy with that as long as it is not torture.
Of course; I’m on board with all of that. But, while I would hope that “most of us” understand the difference between malignant consequences and malicious intent, clearly some of us do not. Did you notice who I’ve been responding to? (I can’t fucking believe I got sucked in again, but there you go.)
Read your cite a little more carefully:
Your own cite disproves your allegation. Unless, of course, you think that McDougal is oblivious or naïve, and just couldn’t see that it was *really *Ken Starr pulling the strings with the prison all along in a fiendish and convoluted plot to get her into that red dress that he’d have no reason to know even existed. Anyway, McDougal herself doesn’t even imply that Starr had anything to do with the red dress; she describes it as an accident of prison regulations and administration.
Beatings, rapes & murders of prisoners by other prisoners have always been allowed and/or actively encouraged by corrections and law enforcement staff. When a victim complains their complaint is ignored and buried. When an outside party raises a fuss, the corrections & LE personnell put on their innocent face and say “hey, these things just happen in prison. Nothing we can do about it”. This is in fact cruel & unusual…torture, if you will, and the powers that be are too cowardly to own up to it.
A lot of prison officials are actually proud of it. Many years ago I had the dubious privelege of sitting with a number of other minor miscreants while the warden of the state prison lectured us about our wicked ways. He said, proudly, “If you go to prison you will be raped. People are raped in my prison every day…and there’s nothing we can do about it”. I supressed a strong urge to get up and punch the arrogant bastard’s teeth down his throat…I was in enough trouble already.
A couple of years later, a young man doing minor time in this same prison was raped and given AIDS, pretty much a death sentence at the time. He sued the state, which stonewalled, of course. The case went to the SCOTUS where, thanks to a vote by David Souter it was decided in the man’s favor…the prison system did in fact have a responsibility to protect inmates from violence. Sadly, nothing really changed.
So please, don’t try to convince us that the state doesn’t engage in torture of prisoners. It may not be authorized, but it is tacitly approved. It is my fondest dream, my dearest wish that every self-serving politicial who passes some draconian “tough on crime” law, every overzealous prosecutor,along with every corrupt cop who sends an innocent person to prison should themselves have to spend time incarcerated with the most brutal criminal elements. May each and every one of them be raped repeatedly by large hairy hells angels and sliced by knife-wielding psycopaths.
SS
I’m new here, but my understanding is that’s not how it works.
You made a claim(that Macdougal was threatened with death by Ken Starr or one of his associates) so then we get to ask you to back it up.
I have asked you to and you have refused.
At this point it’s pretty obvious you can’t and that you made an extremely foolish, ill-thought comment.
Moreover, as VarlosZ points out, you clearly didn’t read your own cite which doesn’t say what you claim.
All of that is utterly true but I have a hard time believing a wealthy white woman with the kind of political connections that McDougal convicted of white-collar crimes had to worry about that kind of thing happening to her, and according to her she got put in the high-profile wing for her own protection.
Perhaps if I were white or wealthy I’d readily believe she was treated worse, but I’m not, so I don’t.
Beyond that, I think you missed my point. I was asking people to show that MacDougal had somehow been treated worse by Starr then other convicted criminals have at the hands of prosecutors and so far no one has.
Furthermore, there’s no evidence that Starr had any control over what happened to her in prison and considering that one of her good friends was the most powerful man in the free world, I think that person would have more power over how she was treated than Starr.
I agree with you. When Bush Sr, was in office I heard (I believe it was Ralph Reed) who was head of the Christian coalition state that they were going to get the RC’s to join with them because of the Abortion issue and over turn Roe V. Wade. Before that most RC’s (That I knew) were Democrats. That was the first time that I know of since FDR was elected that the country was so divided. There are many who vote on that issue alone, and as I see it, too many Christians are afraid they will lose their religion if they do not dominate the politics of our country.
It was the same idea with the John Birch Society they were so afraid of communism, but their numbers were a lot smaller so it faded out.
Like any radical idea it raises fear in people and nothing controls people like fear!