It seems like the second relief pitcher would get the win. RickJay’s amendment wouldn’t take effect if the scorer deemed a further relief pitcher worthy of receiving the win.
That’s why ERA is considered a much more reliable statistic. Even that is not perfect of course. I went to a game the other night in which a pitcher was charged with an undeserved earned run. He pitched one inning, the ninth, in which his team was ahead 7-1. First batter got a hit, went to second on defensive indifference. Two K’s later, a second hit scored him and the pitcher was charged with an earned run. The next batter also struck out so he struck out the side, but was charged with the run and, of course, didn’t get a save.
Going into a 7-1 game is not a save situation. And I’m not sure why you think this should have been an unearned run? Is it because of the defensive indifference?
Just to weigh in here again after reading the helpful responses - I don’t care how valuable wins or ERA or any of that stuff is to stats guys. That’s a different discussion, as are many others that have emerged in the stats era. I am just thinking in terms of fairness or appropriateness when it comes to who “deserves” the win or loss.
The DI is a decent argument that the run was not really earned – very unlikely he scores from first base on a single, and would have been stranded at third on the subsequent strikeout, so the DI made the difference between no runs and one run. Seems logical that if the scorer can make the judgement call that the runner shouldn’t get credit for the stolen base, they can factor that into the earned run calculation.
Defensive indifference is not an error or misplay.
Are you going to let the official scorer conclude that the first baseman playing behind the runner fielded a ground ball that he never would have had he been holding the runner on? Do you “penalize” a pitcher with an unearned run because the infield was playing back with a 7-1 lead?
The reason that this whole system win/lose/save doesn’t work is that the pitcher gets credit for what his offense did.
The point being made by everyone is that “win” is never a “fair” stat for a pitcher, regardless of what arbitrary system you use to assign it. This is because of the fact that the stat is actually the combination of a whole bunch of factors, many of which the pitcher is not in control of. That’s why people who know better pay little attention to the stat. As has been pointed out, assigning the “win” according to the current system is no more or less fair than assigning it under any other system.
Well, there’s no official judgement made in either of these cases. Nor in all kinds of other cases (for instance, tie game bottom 9th, one out runner on third; the outfield will come way way in, so a medium-long fly ball that’s an easy out normally will fall for a hit; the batter ‘deserved’ a sacrifice, not a hit). But there is an officially recorded call in the case of Defensive Indifference (similar to the case of an Error). If you think Defensive Indifference is a stupid thing, and it shouldn’t be an official judgement, then that’s logical, and if it’s not an officially recorded call, then of course you wouldn’t use it to calculate ERA. But why is one official judgement (Error) used to calculate ERA, why is the another (DI) ignored?
I’m not necessarily saying I completely agree that this is anything worth worrying about much, but I think there’s a good, logical argument for it.
Last sentence is not actually true. Several pitchers have gotten the W without throwing a single pitch. (see here for instance : Washington Nationals vs Colorado Rockies Box Score: July 7, 2009 | Baseball-Reference.com).
Come in as a reliever, your team behind in the top of the ninth, two out and a runner on. Take the mound, but before your first pitch throw to first and catch the runner. If your team scores the winning runs in the bottom of the ninth, that’s a W for you, with zero pitches.
Which is a pretty crazy result, but any system will have some crazy results, and the question is whether there’s a system that has less crazy results than the current one, without being more complicated or having many more judgement calls by the scorer.
Can the official scorer award the win to the starter if every subsequent pitcher was ineffective. Say home team takes 12-0 lead after four but pitcher leads off the fifth and gets injured. Five subsequent pitchers all pitch one inning and all give up two runs with home team winning 12-10. Must a reliever be credited with the win?
In this scenario, the last reliever gets a save, but I see no clear path to awarding a win to any pitcher within the rules. I do not know if the scorekeeper has the latitude to stretch the rules in a case like this.
WINNING AND LOSING PITCHER
10.19
(a) Credit the starting pitcher with a game won only if he has pitched at least five complete innings and his team not only is in the lead when he is replaced but remains in the lead the remainder of the game.
(b) The “must pitch five complete innings” rule in respect to the starting pitcher shall be in effect for all games of six or more innings. In a five inning game, credit the starting pitcher with a game won if he has pitched at least four complete innings and his team not only is in the lead when he is replaced but remains in the lead the remainder of the game.
(c) When the starting pitcher cannot be credited with the victory because of the provisions of 10.19 (a) or (b) and more than one relief pitcher is used, the victory shall be awarded on the following basis:
(1) When, during the tenure of the starting pitcher, the winning team assumes the lead and maintains it to the finish of the game, credit the victory to the relief pitcher judged by the scorer to have been the most effective;
(2) Whenever the score is tied the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning and losing pitcher is concerned;
(3) Once the opposing team assumes the lead all pitchers who have pitched up to that point are excluded from being credited with the victory except that if the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher;
(4) The winning relief pitcher shall be the one who is the pitcher of record when his team assumes the lead and maintains it to the finish of the game. EXCEPTION: Do not credit a victory to a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when a succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain the lead. In such cases, credit the succeeding relief pitcher with the victory.
(d) When a pitcher is removed for a substitute batter or substitute runner, all runs scored by his team during the inning in which he is removed shall be credited to his benefit in determining the pitcher of record when his team assumes the lead.
(e) Regardless of how many innings the first pitcher has pitched, he shall be charged with the loss of the game if he is replaced when his team is behind in the score, or falls behind because of runs charged to him after he is replaced, and his team thereafter fails either to tie the score or gain the lead.
(f) No pitcher shall be credited with pitching a shutout unless he pitches the complete game, or unless he enters the game with none out before the opposing team has scored in the first inning, puts out the side without a run scoring and pitches all the rest of the game. When two or more pitchers combine to pitch a shutout a notation to that effect should be included in the league’s official pitching records.
(g) In some non championship games (such as the Major League All Star Game) it is provided in advance that each pitcher shall work a stated number of innings, usually two or three. In such games, it is customary to credit the victory to the pitcher of record, whether starter or reliever, when the winning team takes a lead which it maintains to the end of the game, unless such pitcher is knocked out after the winning team has a commanding lead, and the scorer believes a subsequent pitcher is entitled to credit for the victory.
SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS
10.20
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or
(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.
That’s pretty clear. Thanks