# Abraham Lincoln- not gay!!! (oh but he IS Christian) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951 "2005-04-18T22:21:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/1 "2005-04-18T22:21:35Z")
This almost amounts to MPSIMS but given the subject I thought I’d put it here. Just something I tought was amusing (well, if it weren’t so sad). Much like here, the Christian board I lurk on has been talking about the whole Abraham Lincoln was gay thing\*. Of course over there the idea is met with scorn, if not horror. But what I found amusing were the (many) posts _tut tut_-ing over those silly homosexuals trying to find justification for their “lifestyle” by claiming historical figures for their own…and then in the same breath, claim Lincoln as a fellow Christian. When he never claimed not to be gay (not that I would expect him to say one way or the other) but he certainly stated he was not a Christian. Pot meet kettle. - Personally I don’t think he was. I don’t see any compelling evidence. And if he were, don’t you think Walt Whitman would have know about it 🙂 ? C’mon, you’ve got Leonardo Da Vinci and Alexander the Great just to name two…leave us poor heterosexuals with _some_ heros… ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/2 "2005-04-18T22:27:56Z")
This is mainly irrelevant, but I thought I’d share [this page](http://www.uvm.edu/~nvenet/Lincoln.htm) I made for a friend a number of years back, after some… interesting conversations about Abe Lincoln (possibly not work safe). ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/3 "2005-04-18T22:35:44Z")
Hmmm…I’m not sure that’s proof of anything, **Eonwe**. Those images look like they were photoshopped. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/4 "2005-04-18T22:37:44Z")
> [@betenoir](#): > > But what I found amusing were the (many) posts _tut tut_-ing over those silly homosexuals trying to find justification for their “lifestyle” by claiming historical figures for their own…and then in the same breath, claim Lincoln as a fellow Christian. When he never claimed not to be gay (not that I would expect him to say one way or the other) but he certainly stated he was not a Christian. Well, actually, he stated that he was not a member of any particular Christian church: > [@](#): > > That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures… And from his first inaugural address, speaking of the looming seccession: > [@](#): > > Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty. Scholars disagree vehemently on whether Lincoln was a Christian. Joseph Holland’s and G. Frederick Owen’s biographies (to pick a contemparary and modern example) both paint Lincoln as a man of Christian faith; Ward H. Lamon’s and Carl Sandburg’s argue strongly that he was a freethinker. I would say a fair-minded answer to this issue is that it is simply unclear whether Lincoln was, or was not, Christian. It’s certainly clear he was not a fervent believer in sharing his religious views. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/5 "2005-04-18T23:07:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, actually, he stated that he was not a member of any particular Christian church He also said: “The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion.” He certainly seems to be a man who’s world view was informed by the better parts of Christian thought. ( And who, as a politician, knew when to mention Christianity in a speech. ) But I doubt he’d pass muster according to the contemporary fundamentalist conception of Christian. Still, they are all to eager to claim him for themselves…just as they are accusing homosexuals of doing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/6 "2005-04-18T23:44:01Z")
You’re really gonna have to cite that one, **Betty**. I have enormous admiration for Mr. Lincoln, but the genius that emerged grew out from an ambitious and intelligent politician. Publicly denying Christianity would be political suicide in our own depraved times, in 1850’s America…might as well pull out your pecker on the rostrum and nail it to the flagpole. Game over. Mr. Lincoln was not much given to self-revelation, save indirectly, so we are lost in conjecture. For myself, I mostly think that he regarded himself as a Christian but shied away from public association to a given denomination mostly from poltical expediency, and secondarily because of an unwillingness to devote attention to arcane theological distinctions. It is a faith more of shrugging acceptance than of zeal. He didn’t wear his feelings on his sleeve, they were carved into his face, a craggy monument to sorrow, gravity, and compassion. Be that as it may, Mr. Lincoln could not possibly have been unaware that a public declaration of atheism would be an act of sheerest lunacy, politics-wise. I intend to cast no aspersion on **Betty** , but cannot help but be enormously skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/7 "2005-04-18T23:53:06Z")
May I introduce to you folks **Norinew, WeRSauron, zev\_steinhart** , and **cmkeller** , among others? It’s quite possible to believe in **God** without being a **Christian**. (And, given the topic, it’s quite possible to be gay and do either.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/8 "2005-04-19T00:10:01Z")
Not Christian and believes in God? Hmmmmmm…ponder, ponder…oh, right! Unitarians! ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/9 "2005-04-19T00:18:20Z")
…Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, to name a slight few, and not to mention people who believe in a divine presence without subscribing to any organized religion. Or am I being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/10 "2005-04-19T00:34:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re really gonna have to cite that one, **Betty**. I have enormous admiration for Mr. Lincoln, but the genius that emerged grew out from an ambitious and intelligent politician. Publicly denying Christianity would be political suicide in our own depraved times, in 1850’s America…might as well pull out your pecker on the rostrum and nail it to the flagpole. Game over. Well first of all, my name is not fucking BETTY. Even if this is the pit if I were to respond to your post I would try to get your name right. I am not now nor will I ever be a BETTY. Thank you. Secondly I posted the particuar quote because I have seen it on a number of Lincoln sites. Not just ones trying to prove he was an athiest…or trying to prove anything. It seem pretty well established…although he might not have said it publicly (I did say he was also a politician). Thirdly, it was not so much the point of my post to argue whether he could be called a Christian or not…just the sad specatcle of fundamentalist Christians trying to “claim” him while making fun of homosexuals for doing the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/11 "2005-04-19T00:36:39Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > May I introduce to you folks **Norinew, WeRSauron, zev\_steinhart** , and **cmkeller** , among others? It’s quite possible to believe in **God** without being a **Christian**. (And, given the topic, it’s quite possible to be gay and do either.) Yeah, but being not a Christian and holding national public office in the 1850s would be harder, which is **luci** ’s point, I think, although there were a few Jewish members of the House (Lewis Levin, American-PA, David Kaufman, D-TX, Emmanuel Hart D-NY, Phillip Phillips, D-AL, and Henry Phillips, D-PA) and two Jewish senators (David Yulee, D-FL, and Judah Benjamin, D-LA). As for Lincoln’s religious beliefs, I think they changed throughout time. My reading of him is that he was a sceptic when he was young, and then, as he got older, due in part to the war and the death of his sons, had what would now be known as a “born again” moment, and got very fatalistic and Christian, so much so, that by his second inaugaral, he’s talking about how God allowed the war to happen to punish America for slavery and that the war and the suffering needs to continue until God thinks we’ve been punished enough. He also, at other points, talks about how he expects to die when the war is over, because he’s fufilled his purpose. That sort of stuff isn’t what you’d expect from the young Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/12 "2005-04-19T00:54:55Z")
> [@betenoir](#): > > Well first of all, my name is not fucking BETTY. Even if this is the pit if I were to respond to your post I would try to get your name right. I am not now nor will I ever be a BETTY. Your choice. But when you call him, you can’t call him Al now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/13 "2005-04-19T01:04:17Z")
Lincoln stated explicitly that he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus and was hugely skeptical of all things religious. He once called Jesus an “illegitimate child” and even wrote a book debunking Christianity which was destroyed by a friend to prevent him from publishing it. The following are some excerpts from letter written by a close friend who details [Lincoln’s religious views](http://www.positiveatheism.org//hist/steiner0.htm#LINCOLN). > [@](#): > > In 1835 he wrote out a small work on Infidelity, and intended to have it published. This book was an attack upon the whole grounds of Christianity, and especially was it an attack upon the idea that Jesus was the Christ, the true and only-begotten son of God, as the Christian world contends. Mr. Lincoln was at that time in New Salem, keeping store for Mr. Samuel Hill, a merchant and postmaster of that place. Lincoln and Hill were very friendly. Hill, I think, was a skeptic at the time. Lincoln, one day after the book was finished, read it to Mr. Hill, his good friend. Hill tried to persuade him not to make it public, not to publish it. Hill, at that time, saw in Lincoln a rising man, and wished him success. Lincoln refused to destroy it – said it should be published. Hill swore it should never see the light of day. He had an eye on Lincoln’s popularity – his present and future success; and believing that if the book was published it would kill Lincoln forever, he snatched it from Lincoln’s hand when Lincoln was not expecting it, and ran it into an old-fashioned tin plate stove, heated as hot as a furnace; and so Lincoln’s book went up to the clouds in smoke. It is confessed by all who heard parts of it that it was at once able and eloquent; and, if I may judge it from Mr. Lincoln’s subsequent ideas and opinions, often expressed to me and to others in my presence, it was able, strong, plain and fair. His argument was grounded on the internal mistakes of the Old and New Testaments, and on reason and on the experiences and observations of men. The criticisms from internal defects were sharp, strong, and manly. > > Mr. Lincoln moved to this city in 1837, and here became acquainted with various men of his own way of thinking. At that time they called themselves Freethinkers, or Freethinking men. I remember all these things distinctly; for I was with them, heard them and was one of them. Mr. Lincoln here found other works – Hume, Gibbon, and others – and drank them in. He made no secret of his views; no concealment of his religion. He boldly avowed himself an Infidel. > > When Mr. Lincoln was a candidate for our legislature, he was accused of being an Infidel and of having said that Jesus was an illegitimate child. He never denied his opinions nor flinched from his religious views. He was a true man, and yet it may be truthfully said that in 1837 his religion was low indeed. In his moments of gloom he would doubt, if he did not sometimes deny, God. > > Mr. Lincoln ran for Congress against the Rev. Peter Cartwright in the year 1846. In that contest he was accused of being an Infidel, if not an Atheist. He never denied the charge – would not – “would die first.” In the first place, because it could and would be proved on him; and in the second place, he was too true to his own convictions, to his own soul, to deny it. > > \ > > ``` > From what I know of Mr. Lincoln, and from what I have heard and verily believe, I can say, first, that he did not believe in special creation, his idea being that all creation was an evolution under law; secondly, that he did not believe that the Bible was a special revelation from God, as the Christian world contends; thirdly, he did not believe in miracles as understood by Christians; fourthly, he believed in universal inspiration and miracles under law; fifthly, he did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the son of God, as the Christian church contends; sixthly, he believed that all things, both matter and mind, were governed by laws, universal, absolute and eternal. All his speeches and remarks in Washington conclusively prove this. Law was to Lincoln everything, and special interferences, shams and delusions. > > ``` Lincoln’s beliefs may have been something akin to Deism but a Christian he most definitely was not and he said so. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/14 "2005-04-19T01:12:36Z")
**’lucy** , I understand where you’re coming from but Lincoln did not deny Christianity _publicly_, only privately to friends…friends who made heroic efforts to _keep_ his views from becoming public. When Lincoln was accused by political enemies of being an “infidel” or an “atheist” he did not confirm it publicly but did not deny it either. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/15 "2005-04-19T01:29:24Z")
**Dio** beat me to it, but, yes, Lincoln was not a believing Christian. I don;t think he was an atheist, but he certainly denied the standard tenets of Christian faith. And he wasn’t gay, either. The claim itself is ahistorical–the idea of sexuality as personal identity didn’t exist in 19th century America, and the evidence that Lincoln, ahem, “canoodled” with Joshua Speed is exceedingly thin. and **Betenoir** can tell his Xians that some of us gay folks need no validation fron identification with historical personages. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/16 "2005-04-19T01:38:45Z")
I think it would have been easier for someone to come to public office back then w/o having to declare that one is this or that type of Christianity. Jefferson was a Deist, if memory serves–ok, so that’s not the same era, but IMO, back then, one could get away w/o having a codified religion. Apparently, nowadays, you can be anything, as long as it’s Christian. 😃 PS-I doubt he was gay. I know he suffered from depression and wasn’t Mary a wee odd, too? Also, the physical contact between males is socially sanctioned and has changed throughout the years, no? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/17 "2005-04-19T01:56:20Z")
I think the gay rumor stems largely from the fact that he once shared a bed with a roommate but that was commonplace back then. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/18 "2005-04-19T04:15:06Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And he wasn’t gay, either. The claim itself is ahistorical–the idea of sexuality as personal identity didn’t exist in 19th century America, and the evidence that Lincoln, ahem, “canoodled” with Joshua Speed is exceedingly thin. I don’t think that “the idea of sexuality as personal identity didn’t exist in 19th century America” is neccesarily true. I know that’s what people like Foucault said, but there certainly was the idea that there were people attracted to only their own gender. Look at, for example, Graham Robb’s “Strangers”, or Daniel Quinn’s “Same-Sex Dynamics among Nineteenth Century Americans” ---
**Author:** ![Ink\_a\_dink\_a\_dink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ink\_a\_dink\_a\_dink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ink_a_dink_a_dink)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/19 "2005-04-19T06:21:17Z")
Seriously, I am a little confused. Where did all this talk about Lincoln being a gay man come in? Lincoln was a manic depressive who contemplated suicide, who stood up Mary Todd once and then was able to convince her to marry him in spite of the slight, and then she stood by him steadfastly throughout his depression. If I recall correctly, they had a child who died, or she miscarried or something…Not saying that absolves him (wrong word but, oh well) of beign a homosexual, but this is the first I’ve heard of this assertation. Can anyone explain? Regards, Inky ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951/20 "2005-04-19T06:23:58Z")
> [@Ink a dink a dink](#): > > Seriously, I am a little confused. Where did all this talk about Lincoln being a gay man come in? The idea has been around for a while, some books have been written about it. I don’t buy it myself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-not-gay-oh-but-he-is-christian/299951.md?page=2)