# Abraham Lincoln. Who did he think he was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709 "2001-10-26T03:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/61 "2001-10-27T04:25:06Z")
Abraham Lincoln thought he was trying to save the union by any and all means. He was saddened that one of the greatest of all US generals, Robert E. Lee, joined the South, despite his ambivalence towards slavery. Lincoln later thought he was leading an army consisting of incompentent generals who were beaten by Lee almost all of the time. If it weren’t for Lee’s grace, the Confederate soldiers might have marched on Washington at the very beginning of the war. As a last resort he had to put a drunken general named Ulysses S. Grant to lead the Union army, saying that all of the Union generals should have the same whiskey Grant was drinking. He was the only Union general one who consistently won battles verses Lee on land. ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/62 "2001-10-27T04:32:36Z")
Didn’t Lincoln invent “Log Cabin Maple Syrup” as a means of conserving sap during the shortages of the Civil War? I think he even promoted the use of Log Cabin on custard cake at state functions. ---
**Author:** ![Folkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Folkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folkie)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/63 "2001-10-27T04:51:33Z")
The original poster said but not in the original post: ``` >Oh, and for whoever said that Lincoln's idea to free >the slaves was a good one, let >me say that it wasn't his idea nor did he desire for >slaves to be freed. ``` Usually people who make that claim quote something Lincoln said in 1862: “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.” They usually ignore something he said a few sentences later: “I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.” In 1858 he said: “The Republican party think (slavery) is wrong - we think it is a moral, a social, and a political wrong…” In 1865 he said: "I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.” By the way, I had always heard that it was Lincoln’s mother’s cake that tasted like a shovel. And it is well-known that John Wilkes Booth’s allergy to ice cream is what led him to his tragic course. ---
**Author:** ![plato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@plato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plato)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/64 "2001-10-27T04:57:03Z")
I was wondering if Phils would care to elaborate on his reasons for disliking MR. Lincoln? ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/65 "2001-10-27T06:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manda JO \* > \*\*philsGT500: > > Listen carefully if you want to be successful here, or in any serious debate. > > It is the job of the debate starter to provide the arguement. You don’t get to save all your wit and wisdom to bring up after we have walked into your clever rhetorical trap. \*\* That is correct. Phil, if you don’t have an argument to present, then all you have is a **general question** – or worse, a **mundane pointless thing that you must share**. On the other hand, if you DO have an argument to post, then you MIGHT have the beginning of a **great debate**. If you can’t articulate your argument, then you’ve got no basis for a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/66 "2001-10-27T15:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\* As a last resort he had to put a drunken general named Ulysses S. Grant to lead the Union army, saying that all of the Union generals should have the same whiskey Grant was drinking. \*\* Actually, Grant didn’t drink in the army, even though before the civil war, he drank a good deal. As for the “same whiskey” comment, Lincoln didn’t say it, but he should have. The story was first told about General Wolfe. His critics told King George that he was mad, and George replied that, if that were the case, then he wished he could bite some of the other generals. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/67 "2001-10-27T15:44:31Z")
Quote: “Say, how come Lincoln gets to be on both the penny and the five dollar bill? A little much don’t you think?” Did you know Lincoln is on BOTH sides of each penney? His head is prominent on one side, and he is visible (barely)through the columns of the Lincoln Monument on the ‘tails’ side. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/68 "2001-10-27T15:46:26Z")
Grant, of course, was partial to Rum Cake. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/69 "2001-10-27T16:02:57Z")
Mr. Duality wrote: > [@](#): > > Did you know Lincoln is on BOTH sides of each penney? His head is prominent on one side, and he is visible (barely)through the columns of the Lincoln Monument on the ‘tails’ side. Yeah, but if you fold a one-dollar bill just right, George Washington’s head looks like an atomic mushroom cloud. Try doing **that** with a five! ---
**Author:** ![Rmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rmat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/70 "2001-10-27T16:03:09Z")
As hesitant as I am to suggest that this thread take a turn toward the serious, I find the urge to make three quick points (OK, 2 quick points and one laborious and arcane): 1. I think Abe was a swell prez. Probably none before or since faced more profoundly difficult challenges. 2. Regardless of what one might think of his presidency, he was one fascinating dude. I have never once read anything he wrote without marveling at his command of language. Though some of his writing must have seemed technically inelegant at the time (he was a notoriously poor speller, and had a demonstrably uneven command of usage and grammatical convention), his word choice and sense of rhythm was savant-like. Much of it is postively poetic; it reminds me of Shakespeare and the Bible. 3. The entire subject of habeas corpus, and not just Lincoln’s temporary suspension of it, is quite interesting. The wisdom and legitimacy of Lincoln’s action, I think, can be fairly debated. The more historically significant debate, however, concerns what happened with habeas corpus AFTER the war ended. Around 1866, Congress expanded the scope of the writ, transforming it into a device for expeditious review of alleged violations of the freed slaves’ civil rights, newly created under the 14th amendment. A worthy objective, to be sure, especially given the conditions that existed in many southern states during Reconstruction. But over the course of the next 125 years or so (as the need protect freed slaves from systematicly oppressive executive action progressively diminished), federal judges–always looking to expand their power–radically transdformed habeas corpus into a tool for micromanaging the criminal justice systems of every state in the nation; initially, Congress was rather acquiescent in the transformation. Virtually all of the dysfunction that exists in today’s criminal justice (most especially its appalling pace) is directly attribution to the federal judiciary’s invocation of habeas corpus jurisdiction. In recent years, however, Congress recognized how abusive and intrusive habeas litigation had become, and passed laws greatly curtailing its scope. The construction and application of these laws, however, falls to the federal courts themselves. Not surprisingly, the judiciary’s attitude toward any effort to limit their power is, to put it as politely as one possibly could, grudging, and the effort to reform the habeas corpus process legislatively has been proved largely ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![ShrekLookAlike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@ShrekLookAlike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShrekLookAlike)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/71 "2001-10-29T23:57:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rmat \* > \*\*3) The entire subject of habeas corpus, and not just Lincoln’s temporary suspension of it, is quite interesting. The wisdom and legitimacy of Lincoln’s action, I think, can be fairly debated. The more historically significant debate, however, concerns what happened with habeas corpus AFTER the war ended. > Around 1866, Congress expanded the scope of the writ, transforming it into a device for expeditious review of alleged violations of the freed slaves’ civil rights, newly created under the 14th amendment. A worthy objective, to be sure, especially given the conditions that existed in many southern states during Reconstruction. > But over the course of the next 125 years or so (as the need protect freed slaves from systematicly oppressive executive action progressively diminished), federal judges–always looking to expand their power–radically transdformed habeas corpus into a tool for micromanaging the criminal justice systems of every state in the nation; initially, Congress was rather acquiescent in the transformation. Virtually all of the dysfunction that exists in today’s criminal justice (most especially its appalling pace) is directly attribution to the federal judiciary’s invocation of habeas corpus jurisdiction. > In recent years, however, Congress recognized how abusive and intrusive habeas litigation had become, and passed laws greatly curtailing its scope. The construction and application of these laws, however, falls to the federal courts themselves. Not surprisingly, the judiciary’s attitude toward any effort to limit their power is, to put it as politely as one possibly could, grudging, and the effort to reform the habeas corpus process legislatively has been proved largely ineffective. \*\* Very interesting, but a moot point. Recently unearthed documents show that Lincoln was much more concerned with the suspension of habeas crustum (Lat=You should have the cake). Confederate aristocracy of the period were notoriously addicted to three-layer cakes for desert. Lincoln new that with the suspension of habeas crustum the confederate aristocracy, not to mention the confederate generals would become completely demoralized, thus bringing a quicker end to the war. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/72 "2001-10-30T04:28:20Z")
Ah, but the Confederate states neither recognized nor enforced Lincoln’s suspension of _habeas crustum_. The law of the land in nearly every State in the Confederacy was _habeas crustum tuum et comede_ (Lat=Have your cake and eat it too). ---
**Author:** ![Chupacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Chupacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chupacabra)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/73 "2001-10-30T11:48:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JepSnertRF \* > \*\*I like Cake, I saw them live in Chicago with Alien Ant Farm and Dave Navarro, 25 feet from the stage outside street fest, pretty cool. \*\* I have a friend who went to this show and somebody puked on his shoes (and he was wearing sandals!). Were you said puker? In the interests of maintaining some thread continuity, I have been told that John Wilkes Booth was a definite pie man. He hated cake. ---
**Author:** ![Izzardesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Izzardesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzardesque)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/74 "2001-10-30T13:41:30Z")
How does the humble tart fit in with all these shenanigans, nevermind the plucky little bun? ---
**Author:** ![King\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7bcc69/32.png) [@King\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/75 "2001-10-30T14:00:08Z")
As a child, I played with those little toy house-building logs he invented. Hours of fun. How could anyone not like a man who obviously loved children so much to invent such a thing? In the Star Trek episode “The Savage Curtain” Lincoln showed himself to be resourceful and honorable. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/76 "2001-10-30T14:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by theretsof \* > \*\*“Abraham Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands.” (Quayle) > > Obviously the correct quote is: > > “Abraham Lincoln was born in a cake he baked with his own hands.” \*\* So was Lincoln naked when he jumped out of the cake? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/77 "2001-10-30T14:41:15Z")
ObSimpsons: Homer: Kids, kids. I’m not going to die. That only happens to bad people. Bart: What about Abraham Lincoln? Homer: He sold poison milk to school children. Which leads to ObCake: What goes with cake? Milk, milk. What goes with pie? Milk, milk. ---
**Author:** ![Izzardesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Izzardesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzardesque)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/78 "2001-10-30T14:57:08Z")
Oh this thread just really takes the biscuit… _boom boom_ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/79 "2001-10-30T16:13:05Z")
King Rat wrote: > [@](#): > > As a child, I played with those little toy house-building logs he invented. Hours of fun. How could anyone not like a man who obviously loved children so much to invent such a thing? Plus, he invented a whole _city_ in Nebraska, _and_ an entire division of the Ford Motor Company. And I’m sure he was instrumental in the formulation of Log Cabin brand pancake syrup. And did I mention, I went to Lincoln Junior High School in Santa Monica? (No, really!) ---
**Author:** ![ShrekLookAlike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@ShrekLookAlike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShrekLookAlike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/80 "2001-10-30T17:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Ah, but the Confederate states neither recognized nor enforced Lincoln’s suspension of _habeas crustum_. The law of the land in nearly every State in the Confederacy was _habeas crustum tuum et comede_ (Lat=Have your cake and eat it too). \*\* I believe the entirety of the law was “habeas crustum tuum et comede en comodum” (Lat=Have your cake and eat in too, in the bathroom." The confederates were indeed rebelling against the suspension of habeas crustum, but they weren’t brave enough to do so in public; therefore, they hid in their bathrooms to eat their cake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709.md?page=5)