# Abraham Lincoln. Who did he think he was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709 "2001-10-26T03:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/121 "2002-03-15T05:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by deb2world \* > \*\*My research has shown that Abe only ate his ice cream WITH his cake when it was politically prudent to do so. \*\* Ummm… Did they even have ice cream back then? I mean, how’d they keep it frozen? Would an ice box be cold enough? Maybe they only ate it in winter. Or maybe it was just a sort of chilled, sweetened flavored cream. So many questions… ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/122 "2002-03-15T06:12:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Rieux \* > \*\* > Acording to an episode of James Burke’s **Connections** , margarine was invented by some Frenchman during the Napoleonic Wars. > Did you know that Lincoln used a laxative with the brand name Blue Mass ? \*\* Actually, it wasn’t a laxative. He apparently took it to treat depression. It contained, among other things, dangerously high levels of mercury. Lincoln was know for occasional bizarre and violent behaviour, which can be a symptom of mercury poisoning. Several months after his inauguration he decided that the pills were making him cross and stopped taking them. After that he showed the calm and composure that he is noted for. Check out this link: [http://www.cosmiverse.com/science07180102.html](http://www.cosmiverse.com/science07180102.html) ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/123 "2002-03-15T07:24:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by davidm \* > **Ummm… Did they even have ice cream back then?** It seems that they did. > [@](#): > > From [http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/ichist.html](http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/ichist.html) > Commercial production was begun in North America in Baltimore, Maryland, 1851, by Mr. Jacob Fussell, now known as the father of the American ice cream industry. I don’t know what they did to keep it frozen. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/124 "2002-03-15T14:23:42Z")
I don’t like cake… I don’t have time to tell you why I hate cake but Suffice it to say that not liking cake is a very important issue you should all discuss. So begin your debate any time on the fact I don’t think Cake is all that shit hot. No I’m sorry I can’t say anything please just discuss. What? You ask why I’ve spent all this time telling you I don’t cake when all I have to do is just put a few words down expaining my cake hating post. Well that is a good question but I don’t have the time to answer because I don’t like cake **not at all** Ok I’m still here but well I’m just waiting to see what you think of cake and why cake would never be a good president. By the way I don’t like apple pie either… sorry no time to explain. Please discuss… Oh yes this will be a great debate all right I wish I could get into it but I have no time. Just remember I hate cake. By the way Cake never freed the slaves. Oh do I loathe cake… Let them eat cake but remember a cake in the hand isn’t worth two birds in the bush. You aren’t discussing. Sorry no time to get further into this. Hmmmm Why are you not discussing this… oh yeah. **I HAVEN’T GIVEN ANY REAL FREAKING ARGUMENT TO DISCUSS!!!** NO ARGUMENT AT ALL ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/125 "2002-03-15T15:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by foolsguinea \* > \*\* > I can understand the opposition to slavery, at least to hereditary slavery as practiced in the American South at the time. > But did he have to frame this argument in terms of preserving the Union above all? All that “house divided” nonsense. All things being equal, shouldn’t a state have the right to secede from the Union? \*\* To attempt to seriously answer your question, Lincoln wouldn’t have seen it that way. He believed, almost religiously, that the preservation of the United States, as one nation, was neccesary for democracy. That was one (but not the only one) of the reasons he was opposed to slavery. If you read his first inaugural, he lays out his thinking about the matter of the union there. > [@](#): > > _Originally said by Lincoln_ > Plainly the central idea of secession is the essence of anarchy. A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does of necessity fly to anarchy or to despotism. Unanimity is impossible. The rule of a minority, as a permanent arrangement, is wholly inadmissible; so that, rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/126 "2002-03-15T19:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dr. Rieux \* > \*\* > Acording to an episode of James Burke’s **Connections** , margarine was invented by some Frenchman during the Napoleonic Wars._\* Are you sure it was margarine? I thought it was Mayonaise, invented by General MacMahon (a French general of Irish descent). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/127 "2002-03-15T20:42:05Z")
It looks like oleomargarine was first manufactured in the US in 1871. Apparently it was first invented in France in 1869, by Hippolyte Mège-Mouries, a French chemist, by mixing beef fat with milk and salt. At the 1866 Paris World Fair, Emperor Napoleon III had announced that he was subsidizing research toward a butter substitute, and this was the result. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/128 "2002-03-15T21:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > Lincoln … believed, almost religiously, that the preservation of the United States, as one nation, was neccesary for democracy. And then you quote: > [@](#): > > _from Lincoln’s 1st inaugural:_ > **Plainly the central idea of secession is the essence of anarchy. A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does of necessity fly to anarchy or to despotism. Unanimity is impossible. The rule of a minority, as a permanent arrangement, is wholly inadmissible; so that, rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left.** See, this is what I find absurd. Unity of the USA as a federation is a distinct issue from democratic governance of any of its member states. But the mid-1800’s Republican Party held to the position that the USA was a single nation, & that the South had no right to independence. And here we see Lincoln trying rhetorically to tie this to belief in democracy. The Southerners, obviously, disagreed. They maintained, rightly, that they had as much right to secede from the Union as the united states had to win independence from the United Kingdom three generations earlier. One could reasonably claim that _in that case,_ it was better to keep a unified nation to ensure democracy in the South & to end slavery. But, in general, it is absurd to equate the sovereignty of large federal organizations with democracy, liberty, or good governance in the many local areas where people actually live. … Well, maybe there is a connection there. Keeping the borders open may allow people to leave corrupt &/or oppressive localities for more liberal areas and put a beneficial economic & political pressure on the corrupt areas to reform. However, as the liberals & the oppressed minorities abandon those areas, they leave nearly monolithic populations who scoff at any attempts to reform them. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/129 "2002-03-15T21:36:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by foolsguinea \* > \*\* They maintained, rightly, that they had as much right to secede from the Union as the united states had to win independence from the United Kingdom three generations earlier…_\* Sure, just like the Union had a right to fight to prevent them from doing so, like the UK did three generations earlier. But to get back on topic, when it comes to cake, you really can’t beat a Baskin Robins ice cream cake with that chocolate crumb stuff! Mmm! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/130 "2002-03-16T16:31:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Folkie \* > \*\*By the way, I had always heard that it was Lincoln’s > mother’s cake that tasted like a shovel. And it is > well-known that John Wilkes Booth’s allergy to ice > cream is what led him to his tragic course. \*\* I think you have it wrong. John Wilkes Booth ate too much cake, and the sugar made him go crazy. The historical predecent for Harvey Milk (as in ice milk) and the Twinkie defense. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/131 "2002-03-17T04:30:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Protesilaus \* > \*\* > It seems that they did. > > I don’t know what they did to keep it frozen. \*\* Actually, if I had stopped to think about it for a moment I would have realized that it was possible that they had ice cream back them. I remember that my grandparents had a hand-cranked ice cream machine. We used to use it to make ice cream on the spot for picnics. The ingredrients were placed in an enclosed drum which was immersed in an ice and salt mixture. So if you have ice you can make ice cream even if you don’t have refrigeration. Before refrigeration, ice was harvested from lakes and, I believe, stored in insulated warehouses for the summer. They may have had to consume it as soon as they made it, but it was possible to make it. ---
**Author:** ![d12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71c47a/32.png) [@d12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d12)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/132 "2002-03-18T06:58:50Z")
Stop making me laugh! I’ll wake the parents up. And we all know that means no **Cake** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709/133 "2002-03-18T07:57:50Z")
Jeez you people, I come here looking for a debate on the relative merits of certain deserts, only to find this thread hijacked by a discussion on abe lincoln, slavery, and the civil war. And you wonder why I’m in a bad mood. Bah.☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abraham-lincoln-who-did-he-think-he-was/89709.md?page=6)