# Abramoff may flip on his congressional cronies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594 "2005-12-21T06:05:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/21 "2005-12-27T03:19:19Z")
Agreed. Let’s get all the crooks out of congress. Like that’s going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/22 "2005-12-27T04:25:30Z")
**Squink** , are you sure you don’t have the _Post_ and the _Times_ confused? The Times is the paper founded by the Moonies and is tenerally considered to be a conservative rag. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/23 "2005-12-27T05:25:21Z")
> [@zagloba](#): > > **Squink** , are you sure you don’t have the _Post_ and the _Times_ confused? Nope. The Post has been carrying it’s “fair and balanced” toadying to the party in power to ridiculous extremes for several years now. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/24 "2005-12-27T08:04:38Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Agreed. Let’s get all the crooks out of congress. > > Like that’s going to happen. Yeah… and nothing like throwing our hands up in the air to get the ball rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/25 "2005-12-27T10:53:44Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > You do realize that the paper you cited is notorious for giving a rightwing slant to the news don’t you? On scandal and politics, you may as well quote [America’s](http://washingtontimes.com/national/20051213-111244-2879r.htm)[Newspaper.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050813-115229-5449r.htm) Whatever slant might be there, or not, the paper cites facts that are in the public record. Are you going to claim that the facts are biased as well? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/26 "2005-12-29T23:33:40Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Nope. The Post has been carrying it’s “fair and balanced” toadying to the party in power to ridiculous extremes for several years now. Do you have any evidence of that? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/27 "2005-12-30T00:06:16Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Do you have any evidence of that? Well sure. Just read the paper every day since 2002, and you’ll see it too. Or, you could just look at their bullshit _mea culpa_ on why they pushed the administration’s fake WMD stories so hard before the invasion. You do know they were massively pro-war back then, don’t you? [Here’s a bit of a reality check on today’s Abramoff story.](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_12_25_atrios_archive.html#113586638221511016) Regarding the paper citing “facts that are in the public record,” they also draw equivalencies between jaywalking offenses, and criminal trespass. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/28 "2005-12-30T00:51:21Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Here’s a bit of a reality check on today’s Abramoff story.](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_12_25_atrios_archive.html#113586638221511016) How is that a “reality check”? I mean, strange bedfellows, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/29 "2005-12-30T01:08:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How is that a “reality check”? Aw crap, that doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense does it? Well, we’ve discussed the perception of bias here in GD before, and have determined that it’s a real pain to nail down be it right-wing slant, or liberal tilt. I see it at the Post. Others may not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/30 "2006-01-04T21:57:04Z")
Update: [http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-01-04T204739Z\_01\_N04383251\_RTRIDST\_0\_CRIME-ABRAMOFF-CONGRESS-UPDATE-1.XML:](http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-01-04T204739Z_01_N04383251_RTRIDST_0_CRIME-ABRAMOFF-CONGRESS-UPDATE-1.XML:) > [@](#): > > Abramoff pleaded guilty on Wednesday to wire-fraud charges for falsifying loan documents in the purchase of a Florida gambling-ship fleet, one day after he pleaded guilty to a separate set of charges in Washington. > > As part of both deals, he will help Justice Department investigators probing whether members of Congress gave Abramoff and his clients favorable treatment in return for campaign contributions, sports tickets and other gifts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/31 "2006-01-04T22:03:44Z")
Of course, the above investigation is being handled by the Justice Department, which is under the Attorney General, who ultimately answers to the . . . Well, we shouldn’t get our hopes up too much. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/32 "2006-01-04T22:14:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, we shouldn’t get our hopes up too much. The lady on TV yesterday, Alice Fisher, head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, is [one of Bush’s reces appointments](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3335990.html). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/33 "2006-01-04T22:30:18Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The lady on TV yesterday, Alice Fisher, head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, is [one of Bush’s reces appointments](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3335990.html). See, this is why we need a separately-elected Tribunate. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462) ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/34 "2006-01-04T23:18:17Z")
Nothing like a good indictment/plea bargain to distract from other investigations also. Hopefully the wiretapping and ‘black box’ prison sagas will stay on the radar. I also hope the McCain and Feingold can capitalize on this to push their campaign finance reforms. [Link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/18/AR2005121800885.html) to the Washington Post regarding that aspect. I think K street will suffer even more fallout from this then Congress, and rightly fully so. If we are going to have a fourth branch of government, let it be the press, not the lobbyists. (Nothing against the Tribunate. I would love to see an ombudsman/internal affairs auditor position for the federal government. Slight hijack - this would be a good template - [Commonwealth Ombudsman](http://www.ombudsman.gov.au/about_us/default.htm) . The Federal Reserve’s status is also a good model.) I do think certain Democrats will fall in this, particularly Senator Reid. But I definitely see this hurting the Republicans far worse, and this will hopefully, again, trying to have alot of hope these days, be one of the major issues in the Congressional elections. I am sure it will in the headlines until then. And the effects it has on fundraising this cycle will be interesting to watch. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/35 "2006-01-04T23:39:51Z")
> [@Agnostic Pagan](#): > > I do think certain Democrats will fall in this, particularly Senator Reid. But I definitely see this hurting the Republicans far worse, and this will hopefully, again, trying to have alot of hope these days, be one of the major issues in the Congressional elections. While there are some Democrats who seem to have taken campaign contributions from lobbying organizations that worked with Abramoff, NONE took money directly from Abramoff himself and NONE appear at this point to be the target of the criminal investigation. It’s worthwhile to point out that the issue here is NOT accepting money from Indian lobbyists. The issue here is BRIBERY and so far it appears that the bribery ring that Abramoff is going to prison for was run exclusively by REPUBLICANS. We’ll here a lot of noise from apologists on the right over the next few weeks about how this corruption scandal is bi-partisan. It’s not. It’s a Republican operation from top to bottom. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/36 "2006-01-04T23:47:09Z")
This WP art. goes in depth on the Abramoff/DeLay dealings. Interestingly there appears to be a Russian connection wherein one of DeLay’s front organizations rec’d. a million bucks from Russian sources. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/30/AR2005123001480.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/30/AR2005123001480.html) It’s long, but most of the Russian stuff is on pg. 3. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/37 "2006-01-04T23:48:17Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > We’ll here a lot of noise from apologists on the right over the next few weeks about how this corruption scandal is bi-partisan. It’s not. It’s a Republican operation from top to bottom. Well, we’ll see. It will be wonderful if that is so, from my point of view. However, if any Democrats turn out to be involved, I won’t cry for them. The more scum Abramoff can drag down with him, from either party, the better. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/38 "2006-01-04T23:57:30Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well, we’ll see. It will be wonderful if that is so, from my point of view. However, if any Democrats turn out to be involved, I won’t cry for them. The more scum Abramoff can drag down with him, from either party, the better. Here’s a list of all the [political donations](http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-was-that-about-abramoff-giving.html) Abramoff has made over the last 13 years. **229 political contributions, ALL of them to Republican candidates and Republican PACs.** Hell, George Bush and Dick Cheney are more strongly implicated in this mess than Harry Reid is!! ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/39 "2006-01-05T00:53:41Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Here’s a list of all the [political donations](http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-was-that-about-abramoff-giving.html) Abramoff has made over the last 13 years. **229 political contributions, ALL of them to Republican candidates and Republican PACs.** > > Hell, George Bush and Dick Cheney are more strongly implicated in this mess than Harry Reid is!! From the [cite du jour](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111701469.html), . Quote from the WP: “_On March 6, 2002, one of Mr. Abramoff’s tribal clients wrote a $5,000 check to Mr. Reid’s Searchlight Leadership Fund. “There is absolutely no connection between the letter and the fundraising,” said Mr. Reid’s spokesman, Jim Manley. Another coincidence! Mr. Reid’s Abramoff-related total: $66,000 between 2001 and 2004._” I do not have much love for the Republicans, but they are not the only parties with dirt on their hands. The direct donations may be solely to Republicans, but most of the money at issue is not what he donated personally, but monies he directed his clients, primarily the Indian tribes, to donate. And he was very generous with those sums. I in no way imply that the Democrats are as cupable as the Republicans, but they will not get away clean either. Their damage may be limited to just the political fallout, rather than any indictments, though that definitely remains to be seen. I am certain Abramoff will roll over on as many people as he can. Whoever he names will suffer political damage regardless of whatever a court rules down the road though. I still think that the Republicans will lose the most seats out of this mess. And their influence on K Street has taken a heavy blow. (Would you be scheduling meetings with lobbyists this week?) The Democrats could score more points my admitting their faults, offering up a sacrificial lamb or two, thus deflecting any charges that this will become a partisan witch hunt. They need to convince the public that this is about corruption. The fact that the other side gets hurt more (this time around) is just a side benefit. If they try to make that the sole focus, they will lose. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/40 "2006-01-05T01:01:14Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Here’s a list of all the [political donations](http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-was-that-about-abramoff-giving.html) Abramoff has made over the last 13 years. **229 political contributions, ALL of them to Republican candidates and Republican PACs.** > > Hell, George Bush and Dick Cheney are more strongly implicated in this mess than Harry Reid is!! Well, here’s one Democrat in a hurry to return some money: [Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10451500/) > [@](#): > > The top Democrat on the Senate committee investigating Jack Abramoff’s Indian lobbying is returning $67,000 in donations in response to Associated Press reports that he collected tribal money around the time he took actions favorable to those Abramoff clients. > > … > > For instance, Dorgan: > > Used Abramoff’s arena skybox in March 2001 to raise money, letting one of Abramoff’s tribes foot the bill for using the box. The senator says he didn’t know at the time that Abramoff leased the box. He’s recently reimbursed that money. > > Got Congress in the fall 2003 to press government regulators to decide, after decades of delay, whether the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe of Massachusetts deserved federal recognition. Dorgan met with the tribe’s representatives and collected at least $11,500 in political donations from the Abramoff partner representing the Mashpee around the time of the help. > > Collected $20,000 from Abramoff’s firm and tribes in the period around when he wrote a letter in 2002 urging the Senate Appropriations Committee to fund a school construction program that Abramoff’s clients and other tribes wanted. The letter mentioned one of Abramoff’s tribes. Your cite appears to only list Abamoff’s personal donations. Though, obviously, since Abramoff is a conservative Republican, it is the Republican heirarchy which is going to be most deeply involved in the criminal activity, it’s futile to say that there are no Democrats involved in this scandal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594.md?page=3)