# Abramoff may flip on his congressional cronies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594 "2005-12-21T06:05:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/41 "2006-01-05T01:12:08Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Here’s a list of all the [political donations](http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-was-that-about-abramoff-giving.html) Abramoff has made over the last 13 years. **229 political contributions, ALL of them to Republican candidates and Republican PACs.** > > Hell, George Bush and Dick Cheney are more strongly implicated in this mess than Harry Reid is!! Ah, you’re making the mistake of equating political donations with bribery. Note the small figures in your cite. Those are legal. They’re also his personal donations, which isn’t what this is about-- this is about his lobbying business. And what’s illegal is the _quid pro quo_ aspect, and that’s going to be tough to prove. It looks to me like the folks most in jeopardy are Congressional Staffers, and that for accepting gifts (travel, fancy meals, etc.). Yes, most of Abramoff’s interactions have been with Republicans, but (as others have pointed out), there are Dems involved, too, including Reid. I think this is being made bigger than it’s going to turn out. Remember a few months ago when so many people were sure that Dick Cheney was going to be indicted over the Valery Plame issue? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/42 "2006-01-05T01:32:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Though, obviously, since Abramoff is a conservative Republican, it is the Republican heirarchy which is going to be most deeply involved in the criminal activity, it’s futile to say that there are no Democrats involved in this scandal. Yes, but have the Democrats done anything illegal? Yes, Democrats have accepted lobbying funds from some of Abramoff’s clients. But so far the only names that have been mentioned as being possibly involved in illegal dealings are Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/43 "2006-01-05T02:21:19Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Ah, you’re making the mistake of equating political donations with bribery. Note the small figures in your cite. Those are legal. A moot distinction, come November. We are going to fill the airwaves with ads trumpeting the donations Abramoff made to incumbent Republicans, and how they were so ashamed, they gave them back, but only after Abramoff was exposed as a political sleazeball. > [@](#): > > And what’s illegal is the quid pro quo aspect, and that’s going to be tough to prove. Not in the court of public opinion. We are going to beat this like a redheaded stepchild, and Republican incumbents will hurt by it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/44 "2006-01-05T02:39:12Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Yes, but have the Democrats done anything illegal? Yes, Democrats have accepted lobbying funds from some of Abramoff’s clients. But so far the only names that have been mentioned as being possibly involved in illegal dealings are Republican. Mentioned by whom? The Justice Dept hasn’t mentioned anybody. BTW, here’s the [official total](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060104/pl_nm/crime_abramoff_congress_dc): > [@](#): > > Though Abramoff personally only gave money to Republicans his Indian-tribe clients contributed to Democrats as well, campaign-finance records show. > > Several senators who oversee Indian affairs, including Montana Republican Conrad Burns and North Dakota Democrat Byron Dorgan, have returned donations from Abramoff or his clients. > > National Republican campaign groups received $1.24 million from sources linked to Abramoff since 1999, while Democratic groups took in $844,000 during that period, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan group that tracks money in politics. Or at least one official total. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/45 "2006-01-05T07:10:52Z")
From [Abramoff’s Shadow Lobby:](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050516&s=foer051605) > [@](#): > > [Grover] Norquist ran Abramoff’s triumphant nationwide campaign for chairmanship of the College Republicans. They owed their bond to a shared affinity for bomb-throwing, hardcore conservatism. At College Republicans, they instructed organizers to memorize a speech from the movie Patton. Only, they insisted that their minions replace references to Nazis with references to Democrats. As in, “The Democrats are the enemy. Wade into them! Spill their blood! Shoot them in the belly!” Oh, yeah, Jacks’ an equal-opportunity corruptor, youbetcha… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/46 "2006-01-05T07:16:33Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > From [Abramoff’s Shadow Lobby:](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050516&s=foer051605) > > Oh, yeah, Jacks’ an equal-opportunity corruptor, youbetcha… Not equal, but measured in $ he’s about 0.7-to-1.0 Dem to Pub. Don’t confuse his personal politics with his desire to make money. The former is insignificant compared to the latter. Democrat’s money is just as green as Republican’s. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/47 "2006-01-05T07:31:59Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Not equal, but measured in $ he’s about 0.7-to-1.0 Dem to Pub. Don’t confuse his personal politics with his desire to make money. The former is insignificant compared to the latter. Democrat’s money is just as green as Republican’s. And he makes money by getting the donees to do something for his clients. And who can do more - Republicans or Democrats? Don’t get me wrong, Dems who sold out should fall too, but for the most part he’s too smart to give money to get people to do stuff for him who can’t do things for themselves. If he expected the Dems to do anything much, he’d be as dumb as the proverbial starlet who slept with the screenwriter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/48 "2006-01-05T07:37:47Z")
My problem with the “Abramoff’s clients gave money to Democrats” excuse is that it’s essentially guilt by association. A group that’s politically neutral/apathetic might think nothing of hiring Jack for their cause, yet turn around and donate money to someone else just because that other person also supports them. It’s as meaningless as saying I support the Heritage Foundation because I gave one of my nephews $50 for Christmas and he turns around and uses it to buy their newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/49 "2006-01-05T13:09:18Z")
The Republicans are exaggerating the Abramoff-Democratic links. Some Democrats took money from some of Abramoff’s clients. None took money from Abramoff directly. Since Abramoff’s clients were Native American groups, it seems only logical that western congressmen and senators of both parties would get donations from these clients. This guilt by association ruse isn’t going to work since it’s only smoke and mirrors. The tribal clients that gave money to Democrats before he represented them continued to do so, but in smaller amounts. [From Bloomberg we see but one example:](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=arVHles5cKJc&refer=us#) > [@](#): > > The Saginaw Chippewas gave $500,500 to Republicans between 2001 and 2004 and $277,210 to Democrats, according to a review of data compiled by Dwight L. Morris & Associates, a Bristow, Virginia-based company that tracks campaign-finance reports. Between 1997 and 2000, the tribe gave just $158,000 to Republicans and $279,000 to Democrats. Is there any evidence that Abramoff personally gave money to Democrats? No. Do some of his clients donate to Democrats? Yes, although their donations on the Democratic side drop off considerably once Abramoff enters the picture. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/50 "2006-01-05T17:22:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is there any evidence that Abramoff personally gave money to Democrats? No. Do some of his clients donate to Democrats? Yes, although their donations on the Democratic side drop off considerably once Abramoff enters the picture. I don’t get this “personally gave” stuff. The money that Abramoff “personally gave” to Republican Congressmen is chickenshit-- a few $1000 here and there, and all legal. Unless I’m misunderstanding this all (which is possible), isn’t it also true that it was Atramoff’s clients that gave $$ to the Republicans? Anyway, my real point here is that everyone deancing with glee that this is going to bring the Republicans down is looking at what they want to happen rather than what will happen. It’s way to early to know what the deal is. Once again let me remind you all of what some posters were saying in the days leading up to and immediately after Fitzgerald announced his indictment against Libby. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/51 "2006-01-05T18:19:58Z")
It’s not too early to tell at all. The Abramoff operation was obviously Republican from top to bottom. The best the Pubs can hope for is that they can implicate or smear one or two Dems (however peripherally) and then attempt to disngenuously paint this scandal as “bi-partsan.” Take a look at which party members are scrambling to unload Abramoff money as we speak. It isn’t Democrats. Having said that, I don’t expect the fall-out to have any political ramifications. People are too dug in ideologically for scandals to affect elections any more. Right wing voters will still vote for right wing candidates. The kind of person who would vote a Bill Frist or a Tom Delay (or Bush, for that matter) is not going to be swayed by a little corruption. As long as the Pubs keep bashing the homos and screaming the word “terrorist,” they’ll continue to win. That’s what people care about, not ethics. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/52 "2006-01-05T18:28:39Z")
[http://wcbs880.com/topstories/local\_story\_005091156.html](http://wcbs880.com/topstories/local_story_005091156.html) You’re entirely right. Hillary Clinton is not a Democrat. Neither is Charles Rangel. And that’s just New York. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/53 "2006-01-05T18:47:55Z")
They’re not returning money from Abramoff, they’re returning money from Indian tribes “linked” to Abramoff. Only the Republicans got money from Abramoff. Stories about Dems who got money from Abramoff clients are basically just red herrings. Chewbacca lives on Endor. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/54 "2006-01-05T19:25:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They’re not returning money from Abramoff, they’re returning money from Indian tribes “linked” to Abramoff. Isn’t that what the Republicans are doing, too? The news reports I’ve read always say “money linked to Abramoff” for both sides. I’ll freely admit that I may have missed some stories about money received directly from Abramoff-- can you link us to an article that explains this? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/55 "2006-01-05T19:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush’s re-election campaign was giving up 6,000 U.S. dollars in campaign contributions connected to Abramoff, and would donate the money to the American Heart Association. > Abramoff raised at least 100,000 dollars for the Bush-Cheney '04 re-election campaign, but only 6,000 dollars came directly from Abramoff, his wife and one of the Indian tribes that he worked to win influence for in Washington. [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/05/content\_4010129.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/05/content_4010129.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/56 "2006-01-05T19:57:37Z")
[Here’s more.](http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=17&art_id=9286&sid=6140689&con_type=1) > [@](#): > > From the Oval Office to Capitol Hill, prominent Republicans are scrambling to shed campaign contributions linked to disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff as his guilty pleas in fraud and corruption cases opened a painful debate within the US ruling party over its leadership and direction. > > President George W Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, and DeLay’s temporary successor in that post, Roy Blunt, joined a lengthening list of politicians whose campaign committees have returned or donated to charities money they received from Abramoff, his associates and his clients. > > \ > > Although some Democrats received Abramoff-linked contributions and favors, the lobbyist - a Republican activist since college - focussed most of his attention on helping the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/57 "2006-01-05T19:58:30Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/05/content\_4010129.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/05/content_4010129.htm) OK. Of course, Bush isn’t going to be part of this investigation, is he? And like I said earlier, all of those campaign contributions, returned or not, are perfectly legal. If someone gets nailed in this investigation, it will be because they got money from Indian tribes (or the like), or were the recipients of trips or meals, etc. tied to Abramoff. And even then the prosecutors will have to tie that money or gifts directly to decisions made about legislation, proving that the Congressman (or -men) would not have voted the same way w/o the money. I wouldn’t blame any Republican for returning campaign money from Abramoff. Sheesh, it’s never more than a few thousand bucks, and who wants to be associated in any way with the guy now? But I will bet anyone here that there will be no convictions of Congressmen based on campaign contributions they received directly from Abramoff. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/58 "2006-01-05T20:02:10Z")
Abramoff wouldn’t be getting a deal if he didn’t have the goods on some big name Pubs. Any attempt to portay this as a bipartsan scandal is just whistling past the graveyard. Mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/59 "2006-01-05T20:03:06Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They’re not returning money from Abramoff, they’re returning money from Indian tribes “linked” to Abramoff. Only the Republicans got money from Abramoff. Stories about Dems who got money from Abramoff clients are basically just red herrings. Chewbacca lives on Endor. Actually, the red herring is that the campaign contributions (made only to Republicans) is in any way part of this investigation. It’s the money from the interest groups, and the actions of the Congressmen afterwards. Sure, the Republicans are more vulnerable, but why do you think Dorgan (the Democrat) got money from the Indian tribes in the first place? He isn’t just any ol’ Senator-- he’s the vice chairman of the Senate committee on Indian affairs. I’d say he’s as least as vulunerable as any Republican. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594/60 "2006-01-05T20:18:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t get this “personally gave” stuff. The money that Abramoff “personally gave” to Republican Congressmen is chickenshit-- a few $1000 here and there, and all legal. You might be [off by a factor of 100.](http://thinkprogress.org/2006/01/05/how-much/) From the 7/21/03 _New York Times:_ [quote] As President Bush’s re-election campaign races to accumulate the largest treasury in history, a similarly fierce contest has begun among his best-connected supporters. Raising $100,000 for the president is a bit passe in this competition; now loyalists must bring in $200,000 or more to be considered top-tier, and they had better come with sharp elbows and plenty of prosperous friends. “Everyone in town is trying to be a Pioneer or Ranger,” said **Jack Abramoff, a top Republican lobbyist here,** using the campaign’s terms for the most elite levels of money collectors. "But the only way to do it is to have contacts outside of D.C., which fortunately I do. So far **I’ve raised about $120,000, and I haven’t even really started making calls."** [quote] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abramoff-may-flip-on-his-congressional-cronies/336594.md?page=4)