# Absence/Emptiness as a theme in art **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 21, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993 "2006-01-21T16:17:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/21 "2006-01-22T06:38:12Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > It would only be contradicted if Didi and Gogo had killed themselves. Instead, they wait for Mr. Godot every day, despite the fact that he never comes. I guess I misremebered it, because I thought they really did kill themselves. I’ll check it out real quick… Okay, you’re right. They say they’ll kill themselves the next day if Godot doesn’t come, but would have to wait for him to find out, so it appears they will just keep waiting for him. I am very pleased to see from this thread that he’s written more besides Godot and Endgame. I love those plays. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/22 "2006-01-22T07:11:12Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > I am very pleased to see from this thread that he’s written more besides Godot and Endgame. I love those plays. Beckett was one of the more prolific 20th century authors–his collected works fill 16 volumes, last I heard. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/23 "2006-01-22T08:29:14Z")
The other day, upon the stair I met a man who wasn’t there. He wasn’t there again today I wish the hell he’d go away. Does that count? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/24 "2006-01-22T08:47:57Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > It would only be contradicted if Didi and Gogo had killed themselves. Instead, they wait for Mr. Godot every day, despite the fact that he never comes. Hm. Well, since it’s (among other things) an allegory about man’s relationship with God, it’s not so much about an absence as about a dysfunctional relationship. God[ot] never arrives, within the time frame of the play, but there’s no question he’s _out there._ Just because God don’t meet you halfway don’t mean he ain’t out there. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/25 "2006-01-22T13:00:33Z")
I’m pretty sure this instance can’t be counted as profound, and it may even be so personal (for me) that mentioning it here may be seen as trivial. However, it does address the theme a bit and may help spur others to think of better examples. The “Classic Arts” channel has been a favorite rest stop for us for quite a while now. It’s on the PEG channel (Public – Educational – Government) that had been content free until this Arts service began to be shown. It’s filmed shorts of performances of ballet, opera, classical music, some oldies jazz shorts and occasionally just a visual tour of an art exhibition. Mostly music, though. The other day there was an extended tribute to Joaquin Rodrigo and his famous composition _Concierto de Aranjuez_ with orchestra conducted by Placido Domingo and guitar by Manuel Barrueco. Until then I wasn’t aware that Rodrigo was still alive and that he had been blind since childhood nor that he composed using a Braille machine! Anyway, the camera’s focus was mainly on the guitarist and an English horn player, with occasional shots of Domingo and the strings. Whenever the focus was on the English horn player, just beyond her and somewhat out of focus in the lap of someone who never was shown playing the instrument was a muted trumpet. Whether it was intentional or not, I couldn’t help but feel a pang for the absence of Miles Davis. His _Sketches of Spain_ album from the late 50’s was my first introduction to _Concierto_ and may be many people’s only exposure. Many jazz players have included it in older albums, mostly guitarists like Jim Hall, Laurindo Almeida, etc., but Miles gave it and other Spanish flavored music a touch that showed that blues and gypsy music share roots and feelings. No mention was made of Davis in the discussions of Rodrigo’s works, nor was anything said about that anonymous trumpet player in the orchestra, and after I saw the trumpet I listened more intently than I had been for its sound. I never heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/26 "2006-01-23T06:44:08Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Hm. Well, since it’s (among other things) an allegory about man’s relationship with God, it’s not so much about an absence as about a dysfunctional relationship. God[ot] never arrives, within the time frame of the play, but there’s no question he’s _out there._ Just because God don’t meet you halfway don’t mean he ain’t out there. Huh. [The Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_For_Godot) disputes the connection to God. Of course, they could be wrong and I don’t find their arguments very convincing. English writers sometimes use other languages in their titles, so it’s not impossible for a French play to use an English word. Also, authors aren’t known to be entirely honest about their own works. Personally I mostly agree with you, except I’d put a huge emphasis on “among other things”. It also says in the article that a lot of unofficial sequals were written. I think an interesting one would be if Godot arrived, but they pretended he didn’t and went on to wait for him every day. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/27 "2006-01-23T06:50:39Z")
As for poetry, Robert Frost’s “Stopping By The Woods on a Snowy Evening” comes to mind. The absence in that is how much he wants to get home. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/28 "2006-01-23T15:01:20Z")
If you’re looking for that kind of emotional Schiller-“sublime” empty thing, or Kierkegaard floating above 70000 fathoms, etc, Caspar David Friederich might do it. [Monk by the Sea](http://www.wga.hu/art/f/friedric/1/105fried.jpg) [Abbey in Oaks](http://www.wga.hu/art/f/friedric/1/106fried.jpg) I love that Frost poem. Probably my favorite. ---
**Author:** ![booklyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@booklyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklyn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/29 "2006-01-26T01:16:55Z")
Portugese word “Saudade”, defined by Ana Vez’, " When one’s lovers absence is the strongest presence" also the brit artists, Tracy Emin?, casts the spaces around various things… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/30 "2006-01-26T02:02:58Z")
_Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead_ by Tom Stoppard; the two minor characters from _Hamlet_ carry on a surreal disembodied dialogue in a vague sort of void. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/31 "2006-01-26T02:42:49Z")
Hunh, this is a fairly interesting thread. Absence, mainly an absence of humans, or humanity, in the man-made landscape, has been one of my photographic interests for some time. After all these years, I’m not sure whether it’s because of an innate sense of loneliness that I’ve always had or simply because I’m too shy to poke a camera in the faces of strangers; in any event, the sense of feeling completely lost and alone in an urban environment really jumps out at me at times. If no one minds the imposition, here are a few photos that attempt to capture what I’m talking about, [taken](http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=isolation3cc.jpg) in [Paris](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avenir8xo.jpg) in the mid-90s and in [Dundee](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outdundee06nov058bp.jpg), [Scotland](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westergourdiedundee15dec056rv.jpg) late last year. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/32 "2006-01-26T08:46:42Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > Huh. [The Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_For_Godot) disputes the connection to God. Of course, they could be wrong and I don’t find their arguments very convincing. English writers sometimes use other languages in their titles, so it’s not impossible for a French play to use an English word. Also, authors aren’t known to be entirely honest about their own works. Personally I mostly agree with you, except I’d put a huge emphasis on “among other things”. And since English was Beckett’s first language . . . > [@Talon Karrde](#): > > It also says in the article that a lot of unofficial sequals were written. I think an interesting one would be if Godot arrived, but they pretended he didn’t and went on to wait for him every day. Ha! Then they’d be Jewish! At least in the sense that, no matter how many Messiahs show up, there will always be some Jews who don’t accept him; a kind of “No True Jew . . .” thing. Maybe THAT’S what WFG is about . . . ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/33 "2006-01-26T14:03:21Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hunh, this is a fairly interesting thread. Absence, mainly an absence of humans, or humanity, in the man-made landscape, has been one of my photographic interests for some time. After all these years, I’m not sure whether it’s because of an innate sense of loneliness that I’ve always had or simply because I’m too shy to poke a camera in the faces of strangers; in any event, the sense of feeling completely lost and alone in an urban environment really jumps out at me at times. If no one minds the imposition, here are a few photos that attempt to capture what I’m talking about, [taken](http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=isolation3cc.jpg) in [Paris](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avenir8xo.jpg) in the mid-90s and in [Dundee](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outdundee06nov058bp.jpg), [Scotland](http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westergourdiedundee15dec056rv.jpg) late last year. Definitely some moody shots. Surely they’re on topic. We’ve had [Naqoyqatsi (2002)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0145937/) checked out from Netflix for several weeks now. It’s part of the trilogy begun by [Koyaanisqatsi (1983)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085809/) which also addressed some of the themes we’ve been discussing here. The opening sequence in Naqoyqatsi is of a deserted building somewhere (I haven’t discovered where yet) that uses long slow pans and zooms to capture the isolation and waste of an otherwise amazing structure. It looks like it may be scheduled for demolition. But the mood of that sequence – which runs several minutes – coupled with the Philip Glass music – is enough to tug at your heart. (At least it did mine.) ---
**Author:** ![booklyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@booklyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklyn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/34 "2006-01-29T10:07:40Z")
Sets for first production of WFG made by Alberto Giacometti, a master of reductivism. One story about AG- started a 20 pound block of plaster, ended with a piece that weighed a few onces. talk about absence. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/35 "2006-01-29T15:25:08Z")
“We are the hollow men” – T.S. Eliot \*Thirty spokes converge on a single hub; It is on the hole in the center that the use of the cart hinges. We make a vessel from a lump of clay; It is the empty space within the vessel that makes it useful. We make doors and windows for a room; But it is these empty spaces that make the room livable. Thus, while the tangible has advantages, It is the intangible that makes it useful.\* —Tao Te Ching ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/36 "2006-01-29T18:54:47Z")
You mentioned Miles Davis, but I didn’t see his quote “It’s not the notes that make music beautiful; it’s the space between the notes”. I just knew **lissener** would’ve given you some info on negative space already. Here’s an artist I particularly like [whose use of negative space is fun](http://www.leetracy.com/art_mixed.html). But truly, all good visual art incorporates negative space, that’s what “locks” the image, just like pauses in music. Like with [van Gogh’s _Sunflowers_](http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/paintingflowers/paintings/sunflowers_van_gogh.shtml) – visual artists don’t just slap on a background and paint on top. The negative space is in a dialogue with the object, as you’re painting you touch on them both. That’s what makes it fun. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/37 "2006-01-29T19:11:55Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > You mentioned Miles Davis, but I didn’t see his quote “It’s not the notes that make music > beautiful; it’s the space between the notes”. Good of you to point that fact out. Miles had admiaration for Ahmad Jamal and Shirley Horn for just that reason. I’ve heard that he credited Jamal with showing him the way to that realization. BTW, those are some neat pictures, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/38 "2006-01-29T20:47:08Z")
Like **delphica** and **capybara** , I found myself thinking of painters. Particularly the Symbolists. Particularly Fernand Khnopff. Particularly his [The Abandoned City](http://www.artunframed.com/images/artmis18/khnopff55.jpg). Some spooky shit going on in there. What happened to the statue on the pedestal? Why is the sea encroaching on the street? ---
**Author:** ![booklyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@booklyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklyn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/39 "2006-01-29T23:17:19Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] You mentioned Miles Davis, but I didn’t see his quote “It’s not the notes that make music beautiful; it’s the space between the notes”. I think that quote is from Eric Satie before Miles. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993/40 "2006-01-30T06:14:14Z")
Odd, I was just at the piano playing a Bach prelude and fugue in C minor, and noticed that the prelude was solid blocks of sixteenth notes in both hands the entire way through. No rests, no space between the notes at all. Still sounds OK to me. Maybe your name has to be Johann Sebastian Bach to be able to make that sound OK. In Bowie’s “Ashes to Ashes”, the intro guitar melody, which recurred after each chorus, was definitely sculpted around the empty spaces. Check it out. You can hear silence functioning with as much musical force as notes, if not more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absence-emptiness-as-a-theme-in-art/340993.md?page=3)