# Absolutes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2000, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739 "2000-11-26T06:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/1 "2000-11-26T06:32:26Z")
Question: Is it true that nothing is absolute? What say you? ---
**Author:** ![Peloquin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@Peloquin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peloquin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/2 "2000-11-26T08:44:14Z")
This is a terribly specific thread topic. Care to broaden the scope a little? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/3 "2000-11-26T08:53:47Z")
There are absolutely no absolutes? Is this leading to an evangelical thread? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/4 "2000-11-26T09:13:45Z")
There are always no absolutes. (why isint this in MISIPMS?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/5 "2000-11-26T16:52:56Z")
There are no absolutes in this world except death and taxes. What? Alex Chiu? No, I haven’t heard of him, can someone post a link? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/6 "2000-11-26T16:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*There are always no absolutes. \*\* Meaning that there are absolutely no absolutes? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*(why isint this in MISIPMS?🙂 \*\* I know you have a smiley there, but I do think this is legitmate Great Debates fodder. A lot of people argue that there are no absolutes – that everything is relative. Some of them even invoke Einstein’s Theory of Relativity to “prove” this point (wrongly so, I might add). This is clearly a matter of philosophical controversy and debate. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/7 "2000-11-26T20:14:15Z")
“ABSOLUTE. Nothing in life is absolute with the possible exception of this statement and death, which may explain why political and economic theories are presented so seriously. … Whether it reveals the dictatorship of the proletariat or the virtues of privatization, truth is ideology. Not their truths, our elites say. They are simply delivering the inevitable conclusions of facts rationally organized. Absolutism is the weakness of others. Our elites have the good fortune simply to be right.” -J.R. Saul, _The Doubter’s Companion_ ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/8 "2000-11-26T21:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*"ABSOLUTE. Nothing in life is absolute with the possible exception of this statement and death, […] > -J.R. Saul, _The Doubter’s Companion_ \*\* And how did J.R. Saul come to this conclusion? Or is this merely an asserted opinion? ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/9 "2000-11-26T21:48:22Z")
Damnit! I thought this thread was about me! ::sigh:: “absolutely no absolutes” prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Pinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dr.Pinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Pinky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/10 "2000-11-26T21:54:42Z")
What would constitute proof in this case? Aren’t we proving the lack of penguins in the lower left drawer of this desk? And I’ll have none of that “absolutely no absolutes” nonsense either. The correct way of stating it is “The set of all absolutes is null.” * * * The Earl Gray is starting to kick in… ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/11 "2000-11-26T22:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Aren’t we proving the lack of penguins in the lower left drawer of this desk? Those arent penguins! ::horrified look:: [Absolute Definition](http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=absolute) I really, **really** like the first definition. -“Perfect in quality or nature; complete.” It gives me a warm fuzy feeling. ::ahhh:: -absolute silence- ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/12 "2000-11-27T06:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr.Pinky \* > **What would constitute proof in this case? Aren’t we proving the lack of penguins in the lower left drawer of this desk? And I’ll have none of that “absolutely no absolutes” nonsense either. The correct way of stating it is "The set of all absolutes is null."** Would that not imply that your postulate, “The set of all absolutes is null” is not absolute? The statement “There are no absolutes” (however you wish to phrase it) is self-refuting. If that statement is absolutely true, then there IS an absolute – which disproves the original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Pinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dr.Pinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Pinky)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/13 "2000-11-27T07:36:05Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by JubilationTCornpone \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Would that not imply that your postulate, “The set of all absolutes is null” is not absolute? > > The statement “There are no absolutes” (however you wish to phrase it) is self-refuting. If that statement is absolutely true, then there IS an absolute – which disproves the original statement. > \*\* No. I’m stating, (baldly and perhaps incorrectly) that the set of absolutes is empty. _You’re_ the one that rephrases it into “There are absolutely no absolutes.” That statement is self referential and paradoxical. The other statement is not. Do you see a difference? Show me the lack of penguin in the drawer. Or, to be a little less obscure, define “absolute” and give me an example. (It’s a vodka, isn’t it?) Death? I’m still alive. Taxes? Al Capone. What say me? There’s nothing inside the little circle you’ve drawn. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/14 "2000-11-27T16:50:17Z")
\*\*JThunder wrote: Question: Is it true that nothing is absolute?\*\* The speed of light in vacuum is always the same. We’ve never seen a violation of the first two “laws” of thermodynamics and given our understanding of the universe, it’s pretty unlikely we ever will. We base all of our understanding of physics and chemistry off of these basic principles. Anyone out there with a degree in physics, please correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/15 "2000-11-27T17:50:35Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Dr.Pinky \* \*\* [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by JubilationTCornpone \* \*\* > [@](#): > > No. I’m stating, (baldly and perhaps incorrectly) that the set of absolutes is empty. _You’re_ the one that rephrases it into “There are absolutely no absolutes.” That statement is self referential and paradoxical. The other statement is not. Do you see a difference? > \*\* Personally, I don’t see any difference between the two statements. If the set of all absolutes is empty, then the number of absolutes is zero. Ergo, there are NO absolutes. It’s like describing a set of unicorns. If the set of ALL unicorns is empty, then there are ZERO unicorns – and so equivalently, there are NO unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/16 "2000-11-27T18:08:48Z")
In re to the OP, I must say that No, it is not true than nothing is absolute. BUT, it is true that some things are not absolute. I think every paradox is a non-absolute, so we can clearly create non-absolutes out of thin air. When dealing with absolutes, people tend to get all subjective and claim, among other things, that reality doesn’t exist without them. Not that I care to debate that here, but to make any true statement is to show that at least some things are absolute. To deny that is to say everything is false (except for that statement of course…but then, including that statement…) While it might be amusing to find logical traps as such, I don’t see that they apply to reality. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/17 "2000-11-27T18:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aynrandlover \* > \*\*In re to the OP, I must say that > No, it is not true than nothing is absolute. > BUT, it is true that some things are not absolute. \*\* Absolutely right. 🙂 As an aside… some misguided souls try to prove the non-existence of absolutes by citing examples of non-absolutes (i.e. things which are relative, such as the concept of size). Obviously, such “proof by example” is logically flawed from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/absolutes/42739/18 "2000-11-28T06:39:44Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Dr.Pinky \* \*\* > [@](#): > > No. I’m stating, (baldly and perhaps incorrectly) that the set of absolutes is empty. _You’re_ the one that rephrases it into “There are absolutely no absolutes.” That statement is self referential and paradoxical. The other statement is not. Do you see a difference?\*\* Frankly, no. Let us take the two statements: Statement 1: The set of all absolutes is empty. Statement 2: There are absolutely no absolutes. Please explain how there can be some absolutes (thereby disproving Statement 2) even when the set of all absolutes is empty. Your formulation (that is, Statement 1) AUTOMATICALLY implies that Statement 2 is correct (and vice versa, though that’s left as an exercise for the reader).