Absurd parallel? Living a lie in homosexuality vs urge to cheat one's spouse

How’s it holding up? :slight_smile:

Your example is excellent as it highlights one of, if not THE main point of contention in most of these debates.

If you view homosexuality as an innate part of a person’s makeup, unchangeable, unneeding to be changed, and unquestionably moral or okay, then your comparison is silly.

If you view homosexuality as a product of a lust or an urge or whatever other type of feeling, a feeling on par with infidelity, that is immoral and that should be resisted and overcame, then your comparison is apt.

Part of John Edwards’ Two Americas

An “urge” isn’t a requirement.

For instance, I have a great body, I also have stuggled with food my whole life. When I tell people this they scoff and say “Oh come one you look great.”

It’s as if someone because I’m keeping my urge to eat everything is sight under control and winning that battle that it’s not as hard as someone who has an urge to eat everything in sight and does so.

Now I love food, I would weight 500 pound, because, let’s face it food is GOOD. But I’d be insane to give in to that urge and eat without any restriction.

Just because you’re in control of an urge doesn’t mean it’s not natural.

In nature a group of lions are sitting around minding their own business and an elephant comes into view. Elephants do not tolerate lions anywhere. The first thing the elephants do is run out the lions they see.

What’s a lion to do? He runs away. He’s not stupid. I’m sure he has the urge to fight for his ground but he’s not stupid enough to take on an elephant.

What the OP seems to be asking, at risk of putting words into his mouth is, if I can control the urge to cheat on my wife, then why can’t a homosexual control the urge to not have sex.

Now I’m a gay man and I have heard this argument my whole life, and it technically is true.

I simply don’t find women sexually appealing. Now I (guess) could have sex with a woman, but I wouldn’t find her attractive, I might even enjoy it. But I certainly wouldn’t be physically attracted to her.

I could spend my whole life having sex with women. But does that make me straight? No.

A sex act does NOT a homosexual make.

Homosexuality is really a self perception.

I know a guy who’s 46 years old. He insists he is bi-sexual. His last date and sexual experience with a woman was in high school. I say if you haven’t had any sex or dates with a woman in like 28 years then you are NOT bi-sexual but gay. But he’d insist otherwise. In fact if you gave him a lie detector test, he’d probably pass it, 'cause he really believes he IS bi-sexual.

I did some work for a major university and part of my job was to analyze and administer questions for surveys to gay men. We HAD to use the phrase, “I am a man who has sex with another man.”

You’d think that would solve issues? No, because everyone’s idea of sex is different. "We had to literally say “I am a man who (insert explicit name of sex act) with other men.”

The bottom line is whether you are actually lying to yourself or not. Like the alcoholic who says “I can stop anytime I want.” Some can, some cannot.

I read about singer Darren “Savage Garden” Hayes, who went into his marriage knowing very well he didn’t like women. But he said “At the time I figured I’d cope with it and eventually learn to adjust.” Well he didn’t. He said he had to go to his wife later on and say “I made some promises to you, I thought at the time, I could keep, but now I know I can’t keep and should’ve never made.”

In this case we have someone entering a marriage knowing fully well they are gay, but hoping it will get better. Not so far off, how many times do we find a woman was beaten up by her boyfriend but married him anyway, thinking “It’ll get better after we’re married.”

Since there is no way to accurately determain what is in a person’s head (hindsight is 20/20 and memories are notoriously convenient). You can’t say.

What’s so bad about living a lie? If the lie makes you happy, live it, embrace it.

Well, not exactly: in fact, I’d never suggest that. But what I am wondering now is why is it that when someone comes out as gay later in life, it’s perceived as de-legitimizing all of their previous heterosexual relationships. As I said before, it seems incredibly condescending, and seems to be upheld for the sake of the axiom that no one can ever change their orientation. “You were always gay/bisexual, you just never admitted it to yourself” – I have to say that I don’t really buy that. Why can’t someone’s preferences change over time?

And I guess to tie it to my OP – say someone divorces his wife and then shacks up with a dude, and admits that during his marriage he sometimes had homosexual desires. Per the common wisdom of the SDMB, I think everyone would shout, “a-HA! You were a card-carrying gay all along!” with the implication that he was somehow never legitimately in a heterosexual marriage to begin with.

But if after years of marriage I decide to sow my wild oats and live the life of Hugh Hefner, OK, I’m now acting on unfulfilled urges I had while I was married, but I think I’d have a more receptive audience if I asserted that “yes, I was married, but my views & priorities in life have changed; I’m a different person now.”

Sorry, missed edit window again–

Well, by the same token, how often does a guy go into marriage knowing full well he has an inner hound dog to tame, and he’s going to have to keep it on a leash from now on? I’m not talking about your case or that of the fellow you cited, but I do wonder if “sorry, honey, I’ve realized I’ve always been gay” gets a bit more of a free pass than “sorry, honey, I’ve realized I’ve always been a hound dog.” :slight_smile:

Here’s where your analogy breaks down: you aren’t lying about how you feel.

You’re married to a woman. Do you love her? Yes. Are you sexually attracted to her? Yes. Are you still sexually attracted to other women? Yes. All of these are things you’ve stated up front. So, where does the lie come in?

On the other hand, a homosexual in a heterosexual marriage generally is lying about something. He’s lying about being in (romantic) love with his wife. He’s lying about being attracted to women. He’s lying about not being attracted to men. That’s where the “living a lie” phrase comes in, and it’s quite often self applied. This is how a lot of gay people who tried and failed to make heterosexual relationships work describe their live prior to coming out. It doesn’t apply to everyone who has a relationships with people of both genders. In the specific case where you’re objecting to its use, there are details that tend to argue for the validity of the phrase: Baxter describes herself as a lesbian, not as a bisexual. She also talks about deliberately sabotaging her relationships with men from the outset, so she’d have an excuse when it didn’t work out. These comments tend to support the idea that her previous relationships were based on some degree of self-deceit. Of course, she also says that being gay is a new development for her, which would argue against that conclusion. It could be that this represents a genuine sea-change in her sexuality. Or it could be that she’s not been sufficiently reflective on her previous sexuality, and is not accurately reporting/recalling her emotional state at the time. As a general rule, I think it’s tacky not to take people’s statements on internal emotional states at face value, but second guessing people seems to be the norm when it comes to celebrity gossip.

Except usually it doesn’t make someone happy to live a lie.

It is certainly possible to marry someone you don’t love, and have a happy life.

But if you’re lying to the person you married, and you tell them you love them, and they believe you, except you don’t really love them, how happy are you going to be? Maybe it will make you happy to make them happy. But probably not as happy as actually being happy.

I think is at the root of some straight’s problems with homosexuals. To hear them tell it…

It is an absurd parallel.