# Abu Ghraib - graveyard of our honor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482 "2004-07-10T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/1 "2004-07-10T20:51:02Z")
First, this… [http://www.usnews.com/usnews/usinfo/press/prison.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/usinfo/press/prison.htm) “U.S. News obtains all classified annexes to the Taguba report on Abu Ghraib” > [@](#): > > …The most comprehensive view yet of what went wrong at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison, based on a review of all 106 classified annexes to the report of Major General Antonio Taguba, shows abuses were facilitated–and likely encouraged–by a chaotic and dangerous environment made worse by constant pressure from Washington to squeeze intelligence from detainees. > > Daily life at Abu Ghraib, the documents show, included riots, prisoner escapes, shootings, corrupt Iraqi guards, filthy conditions, sexual misbehavior, bug-infested food, prisoner beatings and humiliations… Further… > [@](#): > > …Another classified annex reported that the prison complex was seriously overcrowded, with detainees often held for months without ever being interrogated. Detainees walked around in knee-deep mud, “defecating and urinating all over the compounds,” said Capt. James Jones, commander of the 229th MP Battalion. “I don’t know how there’s not rioting every day,” he testified…" > > …E-mails sent by Major David Dinenna of the 320th MP Battalion. The E-mails… show a quixotic attempt to simply get the detainees at Abu Graib edible food. Dinenna pressed repeatedly for food that wouldn’t make prisoners vomit. He criticized the private food contractor for _shorting the facility on hundreds of meals a day, and for providing food containing bugs, rats, and dirt_…" (emphasis added in revulsion and horror) Now this reference from Tom Tomorrow’s blog page to a German news report… [http://www.thismodernworld.com/](http://www.thismodernworld.com/) > [@](#): > > …Three days ago, a German TV newsmagazine called _Report Mainz_ broadcast an eight-minute segment reporting that the International Red Cross found at least 107 children in coaliton-administered detention centers in Iraq. > > The report also quotes from a yet-unpublished June 2004 UNICEF report, which (as near as I can tell through my crappy German) confirms that children were routinely arrested and “interned” in a camp in Um-Qasr. UNICEF seems particularly vexed with the “internment” status, since that means indefinite detention… I post this in the Pit advisedly, as I don’t really anticipate a debate. I anticipate revulsion, disgust and dismay. There was a time I would have dismissed such stories out of hand. Ridiculous, nonsensical, we’re the Americans, we don’t do things like that. Never mind the sheer ham-fisted stupidity of it. Never mind that anyone who experienced such degradation is almost certainly an enemy of America, regardless of how they aligned before their “detention”. Never mind that reports indicate that a great number of the detainees were entirely innocent. (Well, not any more, I would imagine…we have surely reaped a great harvest of fresh enemies, and I can hardly blame them…) Look what they’ve done to our country! I _want_ to be a patriot, I want to sing the Anthem with pride and honor. I want to believe as I once believed…that when the poor and oppressed of the world hear the news “The Americans are coming!” they take heart, help is on the way! The truth is they most likely dive into a hole and cringe in fear, the Americans are coming, as welcome as a plague of locusts. Is all it takes is one brutal attack to turn us into heartless and brutal cowards? Are we so desperately afraid, so craven and cringing, that we will lash out blindly like a man trying to fend off a swarm of hornets with a ball-peen hammer? Have we abandoned all honor, all dignity, all courage, is there no price too high for safety? Men who hated us attacked us, and that is bad enough, they were wrong, they are deluded, their hatred has no basis, it is madness. But now we will reap the whirlwind, now, God forgive us, we deserve it. How do we even _begin_ to apologize? **Godammit! Godammit! Godammit!** ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/2 "2004-07-10T20:59:06Z")
No, we do not deserve it any more than they did. We did not do this to them. Politicians in Washington did this to them. If you believe that it is time to take back America, then come out of the rah-rah haze that the Republicans and Democrats have boxed you into. Stop running mainstream Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum power mongers through the revolving door. Stop blaming people like Ralph Nader — who never would have stood for this — for the nation’s ills. It’s the fault of people like Bush and Kerry and the people they have duped into voting for them. There is one thing on which the two parties can always be counted on to cooperate, and that is campaign and ballot access legislation that stifles third party competition. There was a holocaust in the Sudan as well, and Democrats in Washington didn’t do diddly about it. You want good government? Then wake the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/3 "2004-07-10T21:32:48Z")
Well, gosh-all-rootie, **Lib** , who are these paragons of American virtue? Where, oh, where might I find a political group untainted by such dishonor? Who stands tall and solid for the American values of our forefathers? Who can we turn to in these desperate times? What’s that you say? The _Rastafarian_ Party? No, that can’t be right, must have been garbled in transmission… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/4 "2004-07-10T22:39:54Z")
Both Nader and Badnarik are men of honor who, for different reasons, would never condone such attrocities. The sad thing is that people know as much about them as they do about Kerry — nothing. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/5 "2004-07-10T22:59:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Both Nader and Badnarik are men of honor who, for different reasons, would never condone such attrocities. The sad thing is that people know as much about them as they do about Kerry — nothing. Maybe a few years ago you could convince me of Nader’s honor - I don’t think anyone could do so anymore. Coupled with his help from the GOP to get on the ballot in several states by accepting money and assistance from extreme right wing groups, the fact that his most recent book is published by Regan Publishing and recent relevations regarding his treatment of workers and his own campaign finance violations - his reputation is a bit tarnished. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/6 "2004-07-11T01:31:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > …Badnarik [is a man] of honor who, for different reasons, would never condone such attrocities. Yeah, but any candidate whose website makes you install RealPlayer in order to “meet the candidate” is clearly in league with Satan. Atrocities, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/7 "2004-07-11T03:57:58Z")
I thought Bednarik was a football player. Dunno as I’d vote for him for President, even if he’s still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/8 "2004-07-11T06:05:34Z")
What **elucidator** said. I think we now stand disgraced before the world, and it’ll take a whole lot of hard work to get us out of this mess. I don’t particularly think any third party people are relevant in this mess. We have honorable people in the Republican and Democratic party who would never have allowed this to happen had it been their administration in office. I (yes, I’m Bush bashing, but with cause) lay the blame squarely on the current administration. This unconscionable clusterfuck happened on _their_ watch. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/9 "2004-07-11T08:01:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, we do not deserve it any more than they did. We did not do this to them. Politicians in Washington did this to them. With all due respect, we most certainly did. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t go stamping and snorting around the planet about the giddy possibilities and stern responsiblities of freedom while dodging the essentials of our own rhetoric. 'Scuse me, but either the noble principle, “of the people, by the people, for the people” applies to eveybody, including us, or it amounts to shit. We have absolutely no business imposing–by force–any ideal we aren’t fully prepared to accept in turn, which most definitely includes hard, direct, individual responsiblities. The whole essence is that the guvmint isn’t “them”: it’s _us_ If that in fact isn’t the case, we never had any driving principle from the start. How the hell can–or should–we try to impose the ideal of democracy, the powers, rights and obligations of the individual, onto others while we whine “it wasn’t really _us_”! If we don’t hold control over our own goverment, we hold absolutely no convincing suasion to impose on others. The neocons under Dubya have gotten drunk on the idea of empire. They’re pitifully shortsighted, not to mention arrogant. Few things are stronger than a transcendent idea, vision, belief, hope. Why would anyone accept, much less be inspired by, a basic concept of governance we aren’t willing or able to live up to ourselves? _We did this. We allowed it to happen._ Our puling about philosophical, religious, political, one-issue domestic “ideals” is just so much jerking off. If we can’t reach some sort of reasonable, liveable consensus at home, with acceptance of individual responsibility and principled dissent, then “our” reasons for swaggering into war–and torture, and all the loathesome kill-'em-to-free-'em permutations–were hopelessly flawed from the start. I don’t think there’s a magic political solution, party or individual, for everything, much less the smorgasbord of perfectly legitimate domestic concerns. But I do believe in personal responsibility, even when it requires compromises. _Especially_ when it requires compromises. They’re tests, and damned few of 'em are easy. But Abu Gharib happened on my watch, and I’m exponentially obligated due to my completely, insanely undeserved good fortune by being a critical, independent and pissant voting _citizen_. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/10 "2004-07-11T08:09:58Z")
Well, **Veb** , I can say I definitely didn’t vote for the current administration, but you do have a point. Our nation is responsible, not some _them_ in office. We, including me, have to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/11 "2004-07-11T12:08:30Z")
> [@Veb](#): > > 'Scuse me, but either the noble principle, “of the people, by the people, for the people” applies to eveybody, including us, or it amounts to shit. It amounts to shit. Elective offices are bought by powerful and wealthy special interests. Elections are merely polls that tell nothing other than which of two baboons conducted the glitzier campaign. The “substance” is nothing more than rehashed slogans about restoring truth to the Whitehouse and making sure every child can read. It has reached the point that no matter what positions they hold, they can take office and make a bundle. If, for example, they support sugar subsidies, they can get money from food manufacturing industries. If they oppose them, they can get money from medical associations. Meanwhile, ballot access laws ensure that no dissenting voices get through to you. Aside from the hoops of fire just to get on ballots, thier opponents get federal funds to help them out. And the electorate ignores third parties anyway, swallowing hook, line, and sinker the incredibly predictable lies and absurdly hokey rhetoric of career politicians. Hitler was right about one thing: it is indeed lucky for rulers that men do not think. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/12 "2004-07-11T13:21:57Z")
What will it take to make this stop?\*\* How can we ever repair the damage our country has done? **Lib** , before the last Presidential election, I promised myself that it would be the last time that I voted for two white men on a Presidential ticket. I am having to break that resolution. This is one of those occasions when there _is_ enough difference in the mentality of the human beings involved that I _must_ vote for the person who is likely to remove the Bush Administration from power. Then we need some major changes that are a return to the basics of the Constitution. I’m sick of loopholes, bureacracy, and intrusiveness. But an even more dangerous disease threatens us at the moment. Put whatever label you want to on it, but it is deadly. What will it take to get people to stop quibbling about party affiliation and realize that this is not about Democrats or Republicans but about one willfully stubborn and not particularly bright leader who is the puppet of some very crafty, shallow, greedy, sinister, power-mad human beings? > [@](#): > > [Major David Dinenna] criticized the private food contractor for shorting the facility on hundreds of meals a day, and for providing food containing bugs, rats, and dirt… Does anyone know if this private food contractor is the same sub-contractor hired by Halliburton to provide food for our troops? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/13 "2004-07-11T13:23:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It amounts to shit. Elective offices are bought by powerful and wealthy special interests. Elections are merely polls that tell nothing other than which of two baboons conducted the glitzier campaign. The “substance” is nothing more than rehashed slogans about restoring truth to the Whitehouse and making sure every child can read. It has reached the point that no matter what positions they hold, they can take office and make a bundle. If, for example, they support sugar subsidies, they can get money from food manufacturing industries. If they oppose them, they can get money from medical associations. Meanwhile, ballot access laws ensure that no dissenting voices get through to you. Aside from the hoops of fire just to get on ballots, thier opponents get federal funds to help them out. And the electorate ignores third parties anyway, swallowing hook, line, and sinker the incredibly predictable lies and absurdly hokey rhetoric of career politicians. Hitler was right about one thing: it is indeed lucky for rulers that men do not think. There is a very real problem with what the Bush administration is doing. It’s _not_ just business as usual. Your slavish devotion to Ayn Rand gives you a perspective that is for all practical purposes, useless. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/14 "2004-07-11T13:27:53Z")
I respect your position, Zoe, even though I disagree with it. I’ve just never thought that the fire was necessarily a better place than the frying pan. Desmo, you’re such a pathetic idiot. Slavish devotion to Ayn Rand? 😃 None other than Binswanger himself has officially cited me for exclusion from Ayn Rand’s discipleship. It seems she has this burr up her ass over Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/15 "2004-07-11T13:43:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > None other than Binswanger himself has officially cited me for exclusion from Ayn Rand’s discipleship. I’m assuming that you’re talking about Otto Binswanger, who initially diagnosed the eponymous [Binswanger’s Disease](http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/binswang_doc.htm): > [@](#): > > Binswanger’s disease, sometimes referred to as subcortical dementia, is a rare form of dementia characterized by cerebrovascular lesions in the deep white-matter of the brain, loss of memory and cognition, and mood changes. I guess that makes sense. Certainly explains a lot of the nonsense you post. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/16 "2004-07-11T13:45:20Z")
More proof that you’re a toddler at the grown-up’s table. If you don’t know anything about Harry Binswanger, you don’t know anything about Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/17 "2004-07-11T13:56:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > More proof that you’re a toddler at the grown-up’s table. No, **Liberaltarian** , you’re a fool at a table for one. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/18 "2004-07-11T13:59:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > …_snip_… And the electorate ignores third parties anyway, swallowing hook, line, and sinker the incredibly predictable lies and absurdly hokey rhetoric of career politicians. Hitler was right about one thing: it is indeed lucky for rulers that men do not think. Well, isn´t that the point?, that the electorate gets what it votes for? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/19 "2004-07-11T14:05:21Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > No, **Liberaltarian** , you’re a fool at a table for one. I may be a fool, but at least I do not blatantly ignore the [rulings of moderators](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5048163&postcount=21). > [@Ale](#): > > Well, isn´t that the point?, that the electorate gets what it votes for? Sadly, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/20 "2004-07-11T14:16:01Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I may be a fool, but at least I do not blatantly ignore the [rulings of moderators](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5048163&postcount=21). Mommy! Mommy! It’s not fair! She called me names! This is the Pit, so deal with it, you jerkoff. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=2)