# Abu Ghraib - graveyard of our honor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482 "2004-07-10T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/41 "2004-07-12T03:13:06Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > End the war in Iraq; end the war in Afghanistan. Tris Um, why on earth should we end the war in Afghanistan? You do realize that those mother-fuckers aided and abetted those other mother-fuckers on 9/11, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/42 "2004-07-12T03:17:42Z")
**milroyj** , **TV’s** comment was a response to the following post by **Lib** : > [@Liberal](#): > > No, we do not deserve it any more than they did. **We did not do this to them. Politicians in Washington did this to them.** The bolded portion is what our esteemed mod was responding to. I don’t think it’s really that ambiguous or difficult to figure out. On preview, I note this bit of stupidity: > [@milroyj](#): > > Um, why on earth should we end the war in Afghanistan? You do realize that those mother-fuckers aided and abetted those other mother-fuckers on 9/11, right? Those “motherfuckers” are gone, dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/43 "2004-07-12T03:27:39Z")
So because of the politicians in Washington, 3000 people in NYC, DC, and PA somehow “deserved it”? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/44 "2004-07-12T03:34:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Those “motherfuckers” are gone, dipshit. Alas, it seems that they’re making a comeback in some parts of the country. The crime is that we started to do the right thing, then let ourselves get distracted by Bush’s “gotta get Saddam” adventure, and dropped the ball. Karzai is sometimes referred to as the Mayor of Kabul, a reference to the fact that the central government is almost powerless outside the capital. Afghanistan needs a lot of time, attention, and money to turn it into something we’d recognize as a stable, democratic country. If we hadn’t succumbed to the administration’s lies about Iraq, we, along with all our allies (you remember, the ones who used to support our efforts, before we told them all to go fuck themselves), could have dedicated the resources needed, and might actually have been able to lead by example. All those opportunities were squandered by this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/45 "2004-07-12T03:42:50Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So because of the politicians in Washington, 3000 people in NYC, DC, and PA somehow “deserved it”? Let’s try this once more, you stupid fucker. When **Veb** said, “We most certainly did,” she was not saying that we deserved to be attacked on 9/11. She was saying that we (the ordinary folks in the street) did this (torturing) to them (the poor sods who got rounded up and tossed into Abu Ghraib). In other words, we are responsible for the actions of our elected officials. You are free to disagree with that statement, to assert that we can’t be held responsible for the actions of the politicians in Washington, that they, and they alone, are responsible for torturing prisoners in Iraq. What you’re not free to do is to keep misreading it. You’re not just stupid, you’re willfully, persistently, aggressively stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/46 "2004-07-12T03:43:04Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So because of the politicians in Washington, 3000 people in NYC, DC, and PA somehow “deserved it”? Gaah…are you being deliberately obtuse? Read the part of Lib’s post that I bolded. **TV** was saying that “we most certainly did” **do this to them at Abu Ghraib.** She was saying that she felt Americans were collectively responsible for the abuses. **Lib** was saying that only _politicians_ were responsible and that “we” as Americans _in toto_ did not commit the abuses. TV then reiterated a position that Americans bore collective culpability, i.e. “We certainly did.” Commit the abuses, that is. Not “deserve 9/11.”. “Deserving 9/11” had nothing to fucking do with the exchange. That was just a superfluous appendage at the front of Lib’s quote, and even that wasn’t about 9/11 but about deserving reprisals for the torture. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/47 "2004-07-12T03:47:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Gaah…are you being deliberately obtuse? It almost strains credulity, doesn’t it? How can someone that dense even figure out how to get online? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/48 "2004-07-12T03:51:02Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So because of the politicians in Washington, 3000 people in NYC, DC, and PA somehow “deserved it”? Who said they did? Or are the quotation marks around ‘deserved it’ for a non-grammatical purpose? Argument, it’s an intellectual passtime, hence the absent conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/49 "2004-07-12T07:52:34Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > In other words, we are responsible for the actions of our elected officials. That is such bullshit. Even setting aside that not everyone voted for those who were elected (or in Bush’s case, selected) — this is not a referendum democracy. What were we supposed to do, knock out the Secret Service men and walk into the Oval Office to take over? If so, why didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/50 "2004-07-12T10:16:59Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Are you saying we deserved 9/11? That’s asinine. My point was what I actually wrote, not whatever hateful, ridiculous extrapolations you choose to imply. Let me simplify this for you further, since apparently you have trouble with the basic concepts. There’s more than a little irony to be found in our attempting to impose democracy in Iraq as superior for placing control of the country within the hands of the people while pointedly disavowing any responsibility for the actions of _our_ elected officials. We can’t have it both ways, claiming to stand for liberty and personal freedom for others while possessing only superficial, tissue-thin influence over own goverment. And no, I do not hate America. I love it enough to want it to actually work as intended, which includes accepting responsiblity for what elected officials _of any party_ do, good and bad. You seem determined to cast everything in the most simplistic, partisan terms possible, **milroyj**. You insisting you’re a fireplug doesn’t make everybody else dogs, but have a ball viewing the world that way if you want. You must be getting something out of it or you wouldn’t do it. Just don’t expect everybody else to go along with the delusion. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/51 "2004-07-12T10:17:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That is such bullshit. Even setting aside that not everyone voted for those who were elected (or in Bush’s case, selected) — this is not a referendum democracy. What were we supposed to do, knock out the Secret Service men and walk into the Oval Office to take over? If so, why didn’t you? I note that you’ve chosen to ignore **xenophon** ’s statements about responsibility being commensurate with power. Now that it’s obvious that the whole thing was a complete fuck-up, you, being a coward and a liar, deny any personal responsibility, and blame “the system”. It’s an interesting contrast to the stuff you were posting in March 2003, in which you claimed that posters opposing the war bore personal responsibility for the suffering of the people in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/52 "2004-07-12T10:43:57Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > It’s an interesting contrast to the stuff you were posting in March 2003, in which you claimed that posters opposing the war bore personal responsibility for the suffering of the people in Iraq. Including the phrase, IIRC, “liberal jackal pukes” to describe those who had reservations about the war. I’ve given up trying to make actual sense of all the permutations. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/53 "2004-07-12T10:54:17Z")
Since I am on record as opposing the war from the very beginning, I would appreciate an apology from you, Veb. (I don’t care about Desmostylus. He is forever careless about his slurs and unfounded accusations.) And in general, I have consistently for five years opposed any and all military hegemony, including repeated calls for the United States to withdraw ALL troops that it has stationed in more than half the nations on earth. A person might be a liberal jackass puke (if indeed I ever used the phrase), but it would not be for having reservations about the invasion of a sovereign nation when it has not harmed an American. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/54 "2004-07-12T11:04:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since I am on record as opposing the war from the very beginning, I would appreciate an apology from you, Veb. (I don’t care about Desmostylus. He is forever careless about his slurs and unfounded accusations.) And in general, I have consistently for five years opposed any and all military hegemony, including repeated calls for the United States to withdraw ALL troops that it has stationed in more than half the nations on earth. A person might be a liberal jackass puke (if indeed I ever used the phrase), but it would not be for having reservations about the invasion of a sovereign nation when it has not harmed an American. I’m in two minds here. Was I right about you being a liar, or was I right about you suffering from loss of memory and cognition? The thread in question: [A Plea for Tolerance on the Eve of War](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=170855) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/55 "2004-07-12T11:12:57Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > I’m in two minds here. Was I right about you being a liar, or was I right about you suffering from loss of memory and cognition? > > The thread in question: [A Plea for Tolerance on the Eve of War](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=170855) In that thread, I condemned both Saddam’s attrocities and the invasion by American troops. So why are you citing it? Other than because you’re stupid, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/56 "2004-07-12T11:29:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Men who hated us attacked us, and that is bad enough, they were wrong, they are deluded, their hatred has no basis, it is madness. But now we will reap the whirlwind, now, God forgive us, we deserve it. How do we even _begin_ to apologize? :rolleyes: Graveyard of honor, perhaps. Birthplace of some pathetic melodramatic rants? Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/57 "2004-07-12T11:32:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > In that thread, I condemned both Saddam’s attrocities and the invasion by American troops. So why are you citing it? Other than because you’re stupid, I mean. Your “condemnation” of the invasion consists solely of this: > [@Liberal](#): > > My position is that it is always a moral act for private interests to liberate people from tyranny. But a government’s only moral action is protection of those who have consented to be governed. Therefore, I support the liberation of those who wish to be liberated, but not by the U.S. military. That military should be used only to defend and retaliate with respect to specific threats to U.S. citizens. Which is, of course, your usual giant sentient squid rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/58 "2004-07-12T11:47:33Z")
Your flapdoodle obliquity is truly boundless. First of all, it is the opponents, and not I, who introduce (and in fact who devised) giant squids in arguments. Second of all, your belief that the US military is something imaginary is the profoundest naivity I’ve ever seen. Third, your pathetic production of that thread in a vain attempt to bolster your point testifies to your intellectual cowardice. You deliberately neglected to produce posts like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4870718#post4870718) where I said: > [@](#): > > Actually, I advocate the withdrawal of American troops from every foreign nation in which they’re stationed (which is more than half the nations on earth). I advocate that the US government cease meddling in the affairs of foreign nations altogether. And I advocate the complete opening of US borders and free trade, including with Cuba. So how exactly am I part of “the problem”? You must wipe your ass with lies. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/59 "2004-07-12T12:02:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Your flapdoodle obliquity is truly boundless. First of all, it is the opponents, and not I, who introduce (and in fact who devised) giant squids in arguments. Yes, this is quite correct. I used the term “giant sentient squid rubbish” to mock your Libertarianism, and as a deliberate reference to the arguments that others have made in mockery of your beliefs. > [@Liberal](#): > > Second of all, your belief that the US military is something imaginary is the profoundest naivity I’ve ever seen. Earth to **Liberaltarian** : What the fuck are you talking about? > [@Liberal](#): > > Third, your pathetic production of that thread in a vain attempt to bolster your point testifies to your intellectual cowardice. You deliberately neglected to produce posts like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4870718#post4870718) where I said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Actually, I advocate the withdrawal of American troops from every foreign nation in which they’re stationed (which is more than half the nations on earth). I advocate that the US government cease meddling in the affairs of foreign nations altogether. And I advocate the complete opening of US borders and free trade, including with Cuba. So how exactly am I part of “the problem”? Well, now, I did say March 2003, not May 2004. If you’ve changed your mind, admit the past error, change your behaviour, and move on. > [@Liberal](#): > > You must wipe your ass with lies. No, I do it with liars. Like you, and like **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/60 "2004-07-12T13:11:07Z")
Y’know, I am just about annoyed enough to throw my two penn’orth in here. This > [@Liberal](#): > > Since I am on record as opposing the war from the very beginning … is, without question, an outright lie. You did _not_ oppose the war; you spoke loudly and long in favour of the “destruction” (your word) of the Saddam regime; those of us who _did_ oppose the war - myself included - were the targets of, at best, your mockery and condescension, at worst, a truly disgusting level of personal vilification. There was a time when I would have expected better of you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=4)