# Abu Ghraib - graveyard of our honor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482 "2004-07-10T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/61 "2004-07-12T13:15:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That is such bullshit. Even setting aside that not everyone voted for those who were elected (or in Bush’s case, selected) — this is not a referendum democracy. What were we supposed to do, knock out the Secret Service men and walk into the Oval Office to take over? If so, why didn’t you? I was attempting to summarize **Veb’s** point, not stating my own opinion. Your quarrel is with her, not me, unless you’re now stalking me. Methinks you need a self-imposed time-out. You’re making less sense by the day. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/62 "2004-07-12T16:00:44Z")
> [@Steve Wright](#): > > Y’know, I am just about annoyed enough to throw my two penn’orth in here. This > is, without question, an outright lie. You did _not_ oppose the war; you spoke loudly and long in favour of the “destruction” (your word) of the Saddam regime; those of us who _did_ oppose the war - myself included - were the targets of, at best, your mockery and condescension, at worst, a truly disgusting level of personal vilification. > > There was a time when I would have expected better of you. And I with you. As you yourself say, I did and do support the destruction of the Saddam regime, and of any and all regimes who trample on the rights of peaceful honest people. But not by foreign governments. That has always been my stance. Nothing has changed. And unlike Desmostylus, you are smart enough to know the difference between a government’s army and a militia of private citizens. The only people whom I mocked in that particular thread were those who squabbled over whether Saddam murdered closer to 5,000 or closer to 3,000 people per month. A man of your character should have joined me in condemning both his atrocities and our government’s intervention. Pretending that something else happened is obviously contrary to the record. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/63 "2004-07-12T16:02:39Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > I was attempting to summarize **Veb’s** point, not stating my own opinion. Your quarrel is with her, not me, unless you’re now stalking me. > > Methinks you need a self-imposed time-out. You’re making less sense by the day. And each day, you are more reasonable than the next. I call bullshit on bullshit statements. Unlike you, I do not first consider who made them and then figure out whether I ought to agree. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/64 "2004-07-13T01:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **The only people whom I mocked in that particular thread were those who squabbled over whether Saddam murdered closer to 5,000 or closer to 3,000 people per month.** A man of your character should have joined me in condemning both his atrocities and our government’s intervention. Pretending that something else happened is obviously contrary to the record. My friend, I don’t know if you actually believe the bolded sentence through some form of delusion or because of poor memory and lack of review, but it is untrue. You smeared equally those of us who simply said: “But has it been happening recently?” The general summary of the position you’ve just characterized as nitpicking numbers was summarized in that thread thusly: > [@](#): > > …what people almost universally think is _unacceptable_ are the atrocities themselves. Some of us consider an armed invasion, the most radical of all “solutions” to these abuses, without strong international support as less than acceptable also. The question of whether the atrocities have continued to occur, and at what rate, while Iraq has been under intense international scrutiny is of vital relevance to the question of acceptable means of intervention. You called that argument “bullshit defense of a fucking monster”. Does the following argument posted by one of your targets _really_ seem like squabbling over the difference between 5K and 3K? It did to you in that thread: > [@](#): > > I have no problem with the notion of removing Hussein, by force, if necessary. I would prefer to have seen it done with something closer to unanimity from the world community, rather than the “for us or against us” mentality that Bush has imposed on the situation, as I suspect that the current policy will lead to better recruitment posters for al Qaeda and greater troubles in the Mideast. > > In light of my beliefs, a question as to whether Hussein was _currently_ murdering 5,000 to 10,000 people a month has a bearing on my views of the current action vs continued attempts to get more of the world community to support our actions. The same poster further explained his reasoning: > [@](#): > > The numbers presented at the point where I asked about current murders had been in reference to activities that had occurred over the 15 years prior to the first gulf war, with most of the specific atrocities documented between 1987 and 1990. Since that time, the U.S. seriously damaged his army, established a no-fly zone over the Kurd region (preventing air attacks), and provided for a great deal more direct monitoring of that region to report on any continued atrocities… [snip] Further, neither Bush nor Powell have made any reference to recent massacres during their attempts to sway the Security Council. That tends to argue that there is no current policy of mass murder… > > [snip] > > If he was currently killing 5,000 people a month, then putting off the invasion while we attempted to build a broader world coalition is condemning 5,000 people a month, to death. If he is currently killing 10 or 20 people a month, then those numbers may be off-set by the numbers of people throughout the world who will not be slain by terrorists recruited in response to U.S. action–particularly if the UNSCOM teams found the weapons we expected them to. You were unpersuaded that we “brain dead liberals” were not actually sanguine about murder, rape and brutality by Saddam. > [@](#): > > _posted by my friend who now proudly calls himself Liberal in the cited thread:_ > …go ask one of your fellow Saddam lovers. You obviously have nothing whatsoever bad to say about him. Why the hell did I ever come back to this cesspool of duplicity and puke liberalism? Wait. I can answer that one. Because I was fucking stupid. There. You got what you wanted. I’m gonna go watch them hunt down your mentor now. You may continue your liberal orgy. And you really wonder why none of us who have consistently identified as “liberal” joined your principled condemnation of military hegemony? Perhaps we were distracted by your more visible condemnation of our “fucking stupid” anti-invasion argument? Perhaps our minds were clouded by liberal claptrap like concern over the most effective and pragmatic amelioration of the Iraqi plight instead of being focused on the crystalline logic of general opposition to non-private liberation of the Iraqis. Perhaps you seemed to be telling us that we “dumbasses” couldn’t _really_ be opposed to tyranny unless we were _also_ opposed to our government(s) meddling in the affairs of tyrants and perhaps the particular vehemence of that message fooled us into thinking you were somehow in disagreement with us. Go figure. Reread the thread, my friend, and make some apologies. It’s the right thing to do, and I pray that you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/65 "2004-07-13T01:28:21Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And each day, you are more reasonable than the next. I call bullshit on bullshit statements. Unlike you, I do not first consider who made them and then figure out whether I ought to agree. If the Washington Post quotes some nonsense spouted by Bush, do you attack the Post for the content of the quote? ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/66 "2004-07-13T01:31:16Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > before the last Presidential election, I promised myself that it would be the last time that I voted for two white men on a Presidential ticket. I also noticed this nonsense. I’m slightly interested in hearing Zoe expound on why she felt this way. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/67 "2004-07-13T11:59:24Z")
Hmm. Looks like the lying crybaby **Liberaltarian** has run away. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/68 "2004-07-13T13:29:25Z")
> [@Xeno](#): > > Reread the thread, my friend, and make some apologies. It’s the right thing to do, and I pray that you do it. I think you’re right. Your advice has never misled me. So I did reread the thread and, upon reflection, believe that, allong the way, I became beligerent and mean spirited. I can see why people were prone to see my argument exactly as your describe it. I apologize to you and to everyone whom I offended. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/69 "2004-07-13T13:42:48Z")
That just doesn’t cut it, sport. I don’t think anyone was after an apology for what you posted in _that_ thread, but rather in _this_ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/70 "2004-07-13T13:55:07Z")
It is a sad, sad day when a writer of softcore bondage porn can turn to one of his stories and say, "When I wrote [this story of a conservative regime in the U.S. instituting the hooding and sexual degredation of prisoners,](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22TR+prisoners+to+THAT%22&btnG=Google+Search) I thought I was writing fiction! I really did. Note: I’ve used the two-step link because the text and illo here are very very adult in nature and not at all work-safe. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/71 "2004-07-13T16:36:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And I with you. As you yourself say, I did and do support the destruction of the Saddam regime, and of any and all regimes who trample on the rights of peaceful honest people. But not by foreign governments. \ you are smart enough to know the difference between a government’s army and a militia of private citizens. Yup, same old stuff. Nearly five years of same old stuff. However you _want_ the world to work, **Lib** , the vast majority of posters prefer debating politics within the context of its being the art of the possible. You, OTOH, can’t seem to get away from trying to hijack a normal political debate - _any_ political debate, which is the problem - into a debate over libertarian first principles versus reality as we know it. You were doing it here back in 1999, and you’re doing it in this thread now. Can’t believe a veteran like 'Luci fell for it, even if it was hidden under the “St. Ralph, 99 44/100% pure” bullshit. The problem, of course, is that as folks like me get tired of playing your games, new suckers always come along to be sucked into your games. But you - you’re constant. Hell, just the other day, you accused **Left Hand of Dorkness** of following you around the board. I remember that one from 1999, too. But Daniel was no more following you around now than I was then; I’m sure he was just getting into threads that interested him, and getting disgusted when you’d turn them into a debate over you. You want to debate the merits of libertarianism versus American democracy (in general or in some particular facet), start a thread, why don’t you? (Don’t you get enough takers? There might be a message in that.) The rest of us who want to debate Abu Ghraib _within the context of that democracy_, we’ll be over here. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/72 "2004-07-13T17:43:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > However you want the world to work, Lib, the vast majority of posters prefer debating politics within the context of its being the art of the possible. You, OTOH, can’t seem to get away from trying to hijack a normal political debate - any political debate, which is the problem - into a debate over libertarian first principles versus reality as we know it. Oh, I completely understand your frustration, and I am aware that you don’t want me to express my own poltical views in political discussions. But until the rules of the board change, you’ll just have to put up with it. The vast majority of people on the Free-Market message board wouldn’t want you expressing your views there, either. They consider them to be impossible: people in poverty with no political clout, people of color who are almost as likely to go to prison as not, people who would like to vote for the candidate of their choice but cannot find their names on ballots, people who have loved ones who died because bureaucrats blocked their access to life-saving drugs that have been available to Europeans for years, people who cannot afford to send their children to the school of their choice because they have to pay to educate other people’s children, people who have great ideas and want to start businesses, but hit a brick wall of regulation designed not to protect people, but to protect established corporations and government monopolies — these people consider your opinion that you or someone else can plan their lives better than they can to be damnably impossible. “Possible” comes from the Latin _posse_, to be able. You make it impossible for them to pursue their own happiness in their own way. I view all of life, including politics, through the filter of the Noncoercion Principle. If you would deny me the expression of it, then you would deny me expression altogether. That might be what you wish to do, but luckily your wishes do not attain the authority to snuff my views out. I will continue to express them until the board’s representatives tell me I cannot. Fair enough for you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/73 "2004-07-13T21:55:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oh, I completely understand your frustration, and I am aware that you don’t want me to express my own poltical views in political discussions. But until the rules of the board change, you’ll just have to put up with it. Hmmm…deliberately oblivious, or just an overeducated idiot? We report, you decide! Lib, I certainly **do** want you to express your political views in political discussions. But there’s a difference between (a) talking about politics _within the context of a particular political system_, and (b) _comparing fundamentally different political systems_. Most people, when they ‘talk politics,’ want to do the former. You have a habit of hijacking the former into the latter. > [@](#): > > The vast majority of people on the Free-Market message board wouldn’t want you expressing your views there, either. They consider them to be impossible: people in poverty with no political clout, people of color who are almost as likely to go to prison as not, people who would like to vote for the candidate of their choice but cannot find their names on ballots, people who have loved ones who died because bureaucrats blocked their access to life-saving drugs that have been available to Europeans for years, people who cannot afford to send their children to the school of their choice because they have to pay to educate other people’s children, people who have great ideas and want to start businesses, but hit a brick wall of regulation designed not to protect people, but to protect established corporations and government monopolies — these people consider your opinion that you or someone else can plan their lives better than they can to be damnably impossible. “Possible” comes from the Latin _posse_, to be able. You make it impossible for them to pursue their own happiness in their own way. Oh, _nooooo!!!_ And here I’d sworn to use my super-powers only for good! ::rends garments:: > [@](#): > > I view all of life, including politics, through the filter of the Noncoercion Principle. If you would deny me the expression of it, then you would deny me expression altogether. I got over striking heroic poses like that, even in the dark recesses of my mind, when I was about sixteen. Please, view all of life, including politics, through the filter of the Noncoercion Principle, if that’s what you must do. (And it clearly is.) And feel free to engage in discussions thereof. And I suppose the SDMB rules don’t prevent you from trying to hijack any thread you come across into a discussion of the Noncoercion Principle, Libertaria, Shiny Happy People, and the wonders of a world with no public property. But it’s rude, self-centered, and boorish of you to do so. Not to express your opinion, but to do your damnedest to take over somebody else’s type-(a) discussion and hijack it into a type-(b) discussion, simply because that’s the sort of discussion you want to have. OTOH, it’s easy to start a new thread, and even post to the thread that inspired it to link to it. And then those who wanted to join you in your sort of conversation could do so. But speaking from the POV of normal social interactions, as opposed to SDMB rules, you don’t have a right to have your sort of conversation, unless others want to have it with you. You have a way of saying things that get under people’s skin, that are hard to lay off of. And then they’re in your conversation, whether they meant to or not. Fortunately, just as the SDMB apparently gives you the right to do your hijacks, it gives me the right to come in and point out what game you’re playing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/74 "2004-07-14T00:39:10Z")
_Quick note to **Lib** :_ For myself, I accept your apology as offered (and was hoping only for your honest consideration of what I had to say). But you and I have a different online relationship than the one that’s developed between you and the main recipient of your beligerence in that thread and this one. I won’t offer any more suggestions (one meddlesome nudge per thread is enough), but I want to share two subjective observations: 1. In my own dealings with him on this board, I’ve found **Desmostylus** to be a perceptive and generally good natured sort, both willing and able to persuade me of things I hadn’t considered, but to be himself persuaded through rational discourse. 2. Br’er Rufus’ advice is reliable. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/75 "2004-07-14T04:31:28Z")
Rufus??? **_R_TFirefly = \*\*\* Rufus?!?!??!?!?** \* or am I missing something else?? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/76 "2004-07-14T04:58:17Z")
Clearly, you are not up on your Marxism. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/77 "2004-07-14T05:02:38Z")
I gotta start going to the meetings. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/78 "2004-07-14T05:27:21Z")
Oh, yes, do! We’ll be serving duck soup with animal crackers, then we’re all going for a night at the opera! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/79 "2004-07-14T06:43:00Z")
And here I thought **RTFirefly** was merely the cover identity of a time-traveller from the future, here to teach us the gospel of uniting as One People under the music of Wyld Stallyns… Bogus! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/80 "2004-07-14T19:25:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And here I thought **RTFirefly** was merely the cover identity of a time-traveller from the future, here to teach us the gospel of uniting as One People under the music of Wyld Stallyns… > > Bogus! Sorry, **rjung** , I’m a wisecracking time-traveler from the past, looking for ways to flim-flam my way into the presidency of a country with the help of rich benefactors, generally make a mess of the country’s business, and start wars on absurdly minor pretexts. And I’m exceedingly jealous of the current White House occupant for having bested me on all counts! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=5)