# Abu Ghraib - graveyard of our honor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482 "2004-07-10T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/101 "2004-07-16T12:03:04Z")
Now that you have the pass, try clicking the link again. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/102 "2004-07-16T12:32:56Z")
Ah! Thank you. 🙂 After poking around and following some of the links, it looks like Hersh actually first told this to Bill O’Reilly on May 3rd. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html) > [@](#): > > First of all, it’s going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I’ve had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn’t want to mention on national television that was done. There was a lot of problems. > > There was a special women’s section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It’s much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/103 "2004-07-16T14:46:20Z")
There was a time I could have dismissed such allegations out of hand, without a moment’s hesitation. Don’t be ridiculous, we’re the Americans, we don’t do things like that. As through a glass darkly, it was how I felt when the My Lai massacre was first revealed, then ferociously “debunked”, then gradually, piece by loathesome piece, revealed to be true. I bitterly rebuked political allies for participating and advocating such a repulsive bit of anti-American propaganda, how they were disgracing our cause by embracing vicious lies. We don’t do things like that, we’re the Americans. I sincerely hope that Mr. Hersh is full of shit. But I have watched him report for years, and he’s not been caught wrong yet, so far as I know. Dear God, let it be a lie. I don’t care if the Bushiviks trumpet it to the skies, I don’t care if they make a ton of political hay out of it, I don’t care if I have to read a hundred pages of the Usual Suspects gloating and chortling about how the story wasn’t true, so none of the rest of the stories are true. Just this once, let it be a lie. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/104 "2004-07-16T15:35:50Z")
**’Luci** , even Rummy has said that far worse documentation of abuse that the Abu Ghraib photos exist. In your heart, you know that this is probably true and it only awaits confirmation with hard evidence, of which select portions will be shown on the evening news with a disclaimer beforehand. And the GOP Dopers will defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/105 "2004-07-16T15:42:12Z")
Hey, it’s just panties on their heads! What’s the big deal? Everyone needs to blow off a little steam. So they took them on a snipe hunt. So what? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/106 "2004-07-16T15:50:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It has been told to me that I write in the manner of Ayn Rand. > As in my advocacy that peaceful honest people should be free to pursue their own happiness in their own way? More that you post mercurialy, flying intemperately from raging anger to saturnine gravity on a dime, not to mention boldface lying about your supposed opposition to the war. At least admit that, like me, you supported the war against Iraq and vilified the anti-war posters. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/107 "2004-07-16T16:36:52Z")
I do not support initial force. Period. I did not then, and I do not now. In [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3154626&postcount=29), dated 19 March, 2003, I wrote: > [@](#): > > My position is that it is always a moral act for private interests to liberate people from tyranny. But a government’s only moral action is protection of those who have consented to be governed. Therefore, I support the liberation of those who wish to be liberated, but not by the U.S. military. That military should be used only to defend and retaliate with respect to specific threats to U.S. citizens. > > As it stands, Cuauhtemoc’s concern is understandable. The U.S. government is assuming responsibility for people who have given it no consent. As with all government meddling in the affairs of people, there are likely to be unintended consequences. > > Still, all that said, given the situation we find ourselves in, I am arguing merely against what I perceive as myopic, jejune, and Neanderthal positions that it is possible to negotiate with Saddam, that an invasion will kill more civilians than diplomacy, or that blame for Iraqi deaths in the invasion accrue to anyone other than Saddam Hussein. That is still my position. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/108 "2004-07-16T18:33:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I do not support initial force. Period. I did not then, and I do not now. How about Green Eggs and Ham? What’s your stand on Green Eggs and Ham? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/109 "2004-07-16T19:26:07Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > **’Luci** , even Rummy has said that far worse documentation of abuse that the Abu Ghraib photos exist. In your heart, you know that this is probably true and it only awaits confirmation with hard evidence, of which select portions will be shown on the evening news with a disclaimer beforehand. > > And the GOP Dopers will defend it. And that’s the thing that _really_ chaps my hide. It’s bad enough that this Administration is a pack of lying, amoral bastards – hell, we knew that the moment they started trying to sell a war against Iraq on lies and bullshit – but it’s far worse to see people who not only _believe_ this stuff, but will **defend** it with their dying breath. Being fooled by the devil is forgivable; defending him – even after he has been exposed before you – is not. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/110 "2004-07-17T08:02:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Ah! Thank you. 🙂 After poking around and following some of the links, it looks like Hersh actually first told this to Bill O’Reilly on May 3rd. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > First of all, it’s going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I’ve had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. **There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn’t want to mention on national television that was done.** There was a lot of problems. > > > > There was a special women’s section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It’s much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners. And of course, they haven’t and won’t. I tell people about this stuff and they look at me like I’m a conspiracy theorist. Someone brought up a good point on Democratic Underground. If in fact there are videos of young boys being sodomized, they would be considered child pornography. Assuming the video were to be leaked by an anonymous whistleblower, if someone downloaded it and watched it, strictly for verification purposes, they’d have child pornography on their computers, and could get busted. How could **anyone** verify it and publically confirm it without risking being arrested and shipped off to Gitmo or wherever? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/111 "2004-07-22T22:46:37Z")
This is a bump on this thread because I don’t see opening a new one on the same topic. According to the mid-afternoon radio news the results of an Army investigation into prisoner abuse, some 94 cases of abuse have been investigated and it has been concluded that there has been no “systematic failure” of the system. I assume, having not read the report or any newspaper item, just the radio story, that the investigation deals only with prisoners in the hands of the Army and does not cover prisoners in the hands of the Navy (Gitmo) or the CIA (God knows where) or the hands of the Justice Department, or in the hands of self appointed terror vigilantes. I also assume that by 94 instances of prisoner abuse the report of the investigation means 94 separate incidents in which one or more prisoners were abused on a continuing basis, not that there were, for instances, 94 electric shocks administered to the genitals of 94 separate people at the rate of one shock per genital. Maybe not. That is not the point, however. The point is how in a rational universe can 94 instances of abuse by a single agency over an 18 months since the Army has been taking prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan not be symptomatic of a “systematic failure.” The big thing that differentiates an army from and armed mob is a system of command and control. That is the central system. It is the chain of command. It is a structure set up so that higher authorities in the chain of command know what people lower on the chain of command are doing and direct and control what is going on. The people on the bottom have a duty to tell the people on top what they are doing and the people on top have a duty to tell the people on the bottom what to do. If information does not pass up the chain then the system has failed. If orders do not pass down the chain then the system has failed. If those orders are not followed then the system has failed. There might be all sorts of excuses for failure but there is still a failure. It is just as important as having a system to get food, water, ammo and boots to the troops. If there have been 94 incidents of prisoner abuse there has either been (1) a failure of the command and control system or (2) the abuse took place within a functioning system, i.e., the system intended and directed that abuse. It seems to me that it is a lot better to say that the system broke down than to say it was done on purpose. I suppose that the word “systematic” can be used as a synonym for “wide spread and common.” In that case, 94 cases in the Army since the commencement of combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan is too God damned widespread and common. I tell you if a handful of low ranking enlisted MP end up taking the hit for this and the people who had a duty to know about it and command and control it (and who I strongly suspect, condoned it tacitly or openly) get off Scott free then something stinks and you can be very sure that there has been a big systematic failure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/112 "2004-07-22T23:00:53Z")
Heard a similar report, with one detail that has sent me reeling, to the effect that some 40-odd of those incidents ended with the death of the “detainee” (if we are too delicate for “victim”) Has this little nugget of horror been slipped in quietly while attention is otherwise engaged? I’m using my esteemed Dopers for a reality check here, I had nowise heard any such suggestion, already in deep dismay that one or perhaps three of the detainees had died, perhaps from more or less natural causes. Is this only shocking news to me, everyone else had already heard this and moved along? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/113 "2004-07-22T23:00:53Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The point is how in a rational universe can 94 instances of abuse by a single agency over an 18 months since the Army has been taking prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan not be symptomatic of a “systematic failure.” SNAFU comes to mind… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/114 "2004-07-22T23:08:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is this only shocking news to me, everyone else had already heard this and moved along? This is the first I’ve heard of it. Do you have a link or something you could pass along? I’m trying to verify all these things before beginning my spiral into major depression over them. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/115 "2004-07-22T23:10:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is this only shocking news to me, everyone else had already heard this and moved along? Unfortunately, this sounds probable. I had heard, seems about a month ago, a number of deaths somewhere in the high teens, IIRC. But hey, it’s only panties on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/116 "2004-07-22T23:47:39Z")
**Look!** , you want a link? Here’s a link **Ale** a SNAFU (situation normal - all fucked up) sort of defines system failure unless it is confined to momentary and small scale confusion. This was either incompetence on a mind boggling scale of villainy of massive proportions. One or the other; take your choice. I would rather be thought a fool than an EVILDOER ™. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/117 "2004-07-22T23:53:36Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > According to the mid-afternoon radio news the results of an Army investigation into prisoner abuse, some 94 cases of abuse have been investigated and it has been concluded that there has been no “systematic failure” of the system. > > … > > The point is how in a rational universe can 94 instances of abuse by a single agency over an 18 months since the Army has been taking prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan not be symptomatic of a “systematic failure.” You had the answer in your own post. **Army investigation** ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/118 "2004-07-22T23:58:22Z")
And here is the Washington Post on the same story. And here from the New York Times in which the dreadful word “white wash” is used. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/119 "2004-07-23T00:15:21Z")
And this from the New York Times is sort of cute: > [@](#): > > Moreover, aspects of the inspector general report appear to contradict its central conclusion. > The report said that poor training in the handling of detainees increases the risk of abuse. A major finding of the report was that many military police and intelligence officials were poorly trained for their tasks in detention operations. > The report also found that many of the policies relating to detention operations were unclear, ambiguous and poorly carried out. > The report found that the potential for abuse increased when interrogations were conducted in “an emotionally charged environment by untrained personnel who are unfamiliar with the approved interrogation approach techniques.” A major finding of the report was the military suffers from a shortage of experienced interrogators and interpreters. > Finally, the report concluded that “a command climate that encourages behavior at the harsher end of the acceptable range of behavior towards detainees may unintentionally increase the likelihood of abuse.” In his testimony to the committee on Thursday, General Mikolashek said that at many detention centers, “It was a less than ideal command climate.” If that does not amount to systematic failure of the command and control structure, what does? Let me defend the Army. It has always shown a willingness (at least under the leadership of other Secs of Def) to wash its dirty linen in public. I think that is true of the other armed services as well, thus Tailhook, the USAF Academy rape investigations, cheating at West Point (the trade school on the Hudson) and MeLai. Those however were the result of quasi-criminal investigations and not the work of the IG (who is better equipped to count mattress sacks and footlockers that to deal with hot potato issues that cross executive department and agency jurisdictional lines). ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482/120 "2004-07-23T03:22:30Z")
**Spavined Gelding** - I’d thank you for providing those cites for me, but I’m too busy regretting that I asked you for them in the first place. “Less than ideal”? Oh, brother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-graveyard-of-our-honor/254482.md?page=7)