# Abu Ghraib was awful, I had no idea that worse things happened in the US. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2007, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613 "2007-08-23T07:00:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/21 "2007-08-23T17:38:54Z")
I think all prisoners should get a puppy. I didn’t even have to watch the video to come to this conclusion…its obvious. The US is a bad, bad place…and to begin our reforms, puppies are the very thing. And a flower. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/22 "2007-08-23T17:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] How upset are you about the fact that many of the inmates dying are in for non-violent petty crimes and drug offenses? Granted there are many thugs that deserve all the violence we can give them, but what about the others? [/QUOTE] Like I said, the deaths and maimings do concern me, but honestly, I don’t know how widespread this problem is, nor the current response levels. This documentary team didn’t really go into that beyond some apparently unsubstantiated claims. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/23 "2007-08-23T17:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Channel 4 has run documentaries on all subjects covering all countries. It has shown docu’s that criticise British, Irish, other European countries, Asian, African etc. institutions. It is not Anglo centric. [/quote] I know. I’m actually pretty familiar with British TV. > [@](#): > > I realise you may not be use to stations that are like this 😉 but they do exist. > > There is no particular anti-US agenda here. They just show progs that they feel their viewers will like. You go ahead and attack the messenger though if that works for you. Eh. I just found the OMINOUS TONE of the narrator to be waaaaaay over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/24 "2007-08-23T17:47:44Z")
Wow. I guess I don’t want to go to prison now. Thanks Britain! Good to know this doesn’t happen in UK prisons. Yawn… ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/25 "2007-08-23T17:48:53Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I think all prisoners should get a puppy. I didn’t even have to watch the video to come to this conclusion…its obvious. The US is a bad, bad place…and to begin our reforms, puppies are the very thing. And a flower. -XT [/QUOTE] Are you kidding?!? Do you know how easy it is to make a shank out of a puppy rib and a flower stalk? What are you thinking man! ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/26 "2007-08-23T17:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I think all prisoners should get a puppy. I didn’t even have to watch the video to come to this conclusion…its obvious. The US is a bad, bad place…and to begin our reforms, puppies are the very thing. And a flower. -XT [/QUOTE] Yeah, maybe they could start a prison dogfighting ring. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/27 "2007-08-23T17:52:07Z")
[QUOTE=dnooman] Joe Arpaio is going to be mentioned here eventually. I have no love for criminals, but the man is a sadist. I don’t see BBS subscribing to the same beliefs that Joe Arpaio does. I hope I’m not wrong. [/QUOTE] From what I saw in the video, Arpaio’s methods didn’t seem to be out of line at all. If Arpaio is vigorous and vigilant in protecting his officers, and allows policies that establish order, then he’s doing his job well, in my opinion. He’s the guy who got everyone upset for making the inmates wear pink underoos, right? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/28 "2007-08-23T17:54:00Z")
I’m sure the prisoners wouldn’t abuse either the puppies or the flowers…they (the prisoners…not the puppies or flowers) are simply misunderstood. Or being playful (this could go for the prisoners OR the puppies…probably not the flowers, as I’ve never seen playful flowers). I’m quite confident in my assessment as its based on emotion…and you can never go wrong when you base an assessment on emotion, or put your faith in the goodness of your fellow man. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/29 "2007-08-23T17:54:13Z")
Our prisons are a national disgrace, have been for as long as I remember. They are machines for taking not very good people and turning them to monsters, or prey to monsters. About the only thing Americans hate more than prison inmates is the horrid notion that they may not be suffering enough. Despair. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/30 "2007-08-23T17:57:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > About the only thing Americans hate more than prison inmates is the horrid notion that they may not be suffering enough. And maybe foreigners pointing that out. That doesn’t go over too well. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/31 "2007-08-23T17:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] How upset are you about the fact that many of the inmates dying are in for non-violent petty crimes and drug offenses? [/QUOTE] beyond that - nearly every inmate will be out, eventually. Do you honestly think we’ll be safer when they’re released if they were brutalized while incarcerated? Even the baddest of the bad can become badder. and, additionally - those that do the brutalization and torture - ya think they just turn that off when they come home? I am of the belief that crossing the line into torture diminishes the torturer as well. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/32 "2007-08-23T18:01:20Z")
Good lord. I made it as far as 29:48 and the solemnly intoned, “Brian Crenshaw was registered blind”, bound to be yet another sad tale of an inmate tortured, yes, tortured! To death! well, sometimes…maybe By prison guards who can be prosecuted, or sued, for doing it! In a prison that is accountable to the Body Politic! With surveillance cameras recording their every move! In a prison whose officials refuse to speak to strange British camera crews that pop up on their doorstep and request interviews! Except for that Eeeeeeevil Arizona Sheriff, who seems to “relish” giving tours of his facility… So which is it? You’re mad when they won’t let you in, and when they do let you in, you’re horrified that they seem to enjoy giving you a tour of their workplace… … before I had to quit, torn between laughter and disgust. It’s frickin’ hilarious, to begin with, this terribly solemn British film crew, doing an expose of American prisons. Hey, when do we get equal time, eh? And as a piece of conspiracy-theorist yellow journalism, it’s alternately wonderful fun, and exasperating. Oh, no, prison officials refused to meet with us! It’s a conspiracy! Oh, no, if you get drunk in Phoenix on a Satiddy night, they’ll throw you in the tank! And maybe even [gasp of horror] put chains on your wrists! And if you start a fight, oh my dear god, all the depitties will just pile on you! And didja know that pepper spray use in Florida’s prisons has trebled in the past few years? Fact. Those poor, poor people… So yeah, that part of it is fun, but the political agenda isn’t. So the Abu Ghraib hearings come up, and suddenly someone decides to dig up the Brazoria incident, and the Frank Valdez incident, and, oh by the way, let’s mention that the Brazoria thing took place while George W. Bush was governor of Texas, like that means anything. Except that it’s fashionable, when you’re constructing a 48 minute British TV special, to throw in a few potshots at GW Bush. And so they cobble together 48 minutes’ worth of solemnly intoned “expose” that actually doesn’t expose anything at all. The Florida Department of Corrections features the Frank Valdez case prominently on its website. Oh, wait, I thought there was supposed to be a coverup? Oh, you mean, the coverup is in all the abuse cases that aren’t being reported; the fact that the abuse cases that are reported result in the perps being fired, punished, and sometimes fined are mentioned only in passing. The important thing is to get ahold of some more prison officials who will refuse to speak to you. Oy. Everything in this video–everything–is slanted so as to make the Big Bad Violent Americans seem even more so to the Teddibly Civilized British audience. “This jail is run by the man who revels in the title 'America’s Toughest Sheriff…” “But…more than a dozen officers, to pull a man out of his cell, fling him on the floor, jumping on top of him…?” One senses the frisson of delicious horror running down the spine of the telly watcher back in Surbiton. “Oooh, those Americans!” What the comfy suburbanite doesn’t understand is that yeah, when someone is being put in the Tank in Phoenix on a Satiddy night, and acts up, yeah, he gets a pile-on, because the officers don’t know what he’s capable of, he could go batshit crazy and do some real damage. I bet you any money you like this same sort of thing goes on in British prisons. At 23:22, she mentions that a schizophrenic guy who was “uncooperative” and who was put in “The Chair” (that evil instrument of the Spanish Inquisition, which apparently nobody in Britain expects anymore, judging by the narrator’s obvious horror), died later–her voice drops away–“from a blood clot”–but hey, the important thing is, he was in jail! And he died! At 22:52, she says ominously, “But here’s the taser as punishment”. And they show a guy lying on a hospital gurney, not handcuffed, with a deputy approaching with a taser. And you think, “OMG, they’re going to taser that guy! Deliberately! And he’s just lying there, helpless!” But then she says, “This prisoner is stunned several times because he won’t get into a wheelchair…” So they render him partially limp and put him in the wheelchair. Then when he refuses to use his walking frame, just lies there on the floor, he’s tasered again. Um, yeah, if the depitties ask you to get up and move, and you don’t, you get, like, punished. It’s supposed to be, like, an incentive. Even animals understand “avoidance of pain” as a motivation. And then, she intones, “Amnesty International has linked tasers to 70 deaths in North America in the last four years.” And–brace yourself–here comes the conspiracy: “Although drink, drugs, or heart attacks are often the official cause of death…” So I went and googled “amnesty international tasers”. [http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511392004](http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511392004) > [@](#): > > Since June 2001, more than 70 people have died in police custody in the USA and Canada after being struck with tasers, with the number of reported cases rising each year. Amnesty International’s data shows two deaths reported in 2001, 13 in 2002, 20 in 2003 and 38 from January to mid-October 2004.(109) These figures are higher than the total number of taser-related deaths reported in the previous 25 years. > > The manufacturers of stun weapons claim that their products are medically safe, an issue discussed in more detail below. Taser International, which told Amnesty International that it tracks reports of deaths, has issued a number of public statements asserting that in no case has the taser been found to be a “direct cause” of a fatality. The company has pointed out that the deaths are similar to thousands of other in-custody deaths in the USA from drug induced causes or other factors unrelated to taser use. They claim that the increase in taser-related fatalities is due to the fact that tasers are now more widely deployed and will inevitably be used in some cases where people are in the throes of toxic overdoses or other fatal conditions. In several cases their own medical experts have reviewed the evidence and specifically excluded the taser as a cause of death. > > Amnesty International acknowledges that coroners have usually attributed cause of death to factors unrelated to taser use, such as drug intoxication or heart disease. However, some medical experts believe taser shocks may exacerbate a risk of heart failure in cases where people are agitated or under the influence of drugs or have underlying health problems. In at least five recent cases, coroners have found the taser contributed to the deaths (see below). The rising death toll heightens Amnesty International’s concern about the safety of such weapons and the lack of rigorous, independent testing of their medical effects. While there have been some limited studies of earlier stun weapons, there has been no peer-reviewed medical literature published on the medical effects of the new more potent M26 or X26 Advanced Tasers deployed in the cases described in this report. > > Amnesty International has reviewed information on 74 deaths reported since June 2001, including autopsy reports in 21 cases.(110) Nine of the deaths occurred in Canada, with the rest in the USA. The deceased were males aged between 18 and 59 years of age, of varying racial or ethnic origin, with the exception of one case involving the death of a female foetus after the pregnant mother was tasered.(111) Most cases are believed to involve use of the M26 Taser which was the version most widely deployed during the period in question. While detailed information was not always available, the cases nevertheless highlight some disturbing concerns which Amnesty International believes should provide the basis for a full, independent inquiry and further research. [Quote=John Mace] You had no idea that some prison guards get out of hand? As for me, I’m shocked, SHOCKED, that this kind of thing goes on in prisons. So nice of those Brits to come over here and expose this dark side of the American psyche. We are truly an evil nation-- no question about that. [/quote] Thank you. Deborah Davies is a reporter for Channel 4. After this, she moved on to some other project. So it’s not personal for her, not a labor of love. It was just another 48 minute TV show, constructed in order to sell advertising. Dnooman, what’s your purpose here? I hope it’s to poke fun at a muckraking tabloid TV special posing as journalism, 'cause if so, I’m in. [Quote=Yojimbo] There is no particular anti-US agenda here. [/quote] Oh, yes. There is. Why go out of your way to tie it in to Abu Ghraib? Why bother to mention that Brazoria happened when GW was guv of Texas? The subtext is clear: Oh those crazy, violent, _uncivilized_ Americans, who use pepper spray on people. Which we civilized British don’t, er, well, at least, not unless we’re the [Sussex Police Department.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1223786.stm) Or, er, the [North Wales Police.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/2192934.stm) Or, er, the [Lancashire Police.](http://www.lep.co.uk/news?articleid=2957589) When can we look forward to an equivalent expose of, say, Canadian prisons? Answer: never. The phrase “Vancouver Police” doesn’t have near the cachet that “Arizona Sheriff” does. [Police need better Taser training.](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/09/30/tasers_report040930.html) > [@](#): > > B.C. police should continue to use Tasers despite four deaths in the province, but need better training, says a report released on Wednesday. > > The report was ordered by B.C. Police Complaints Commissioner Dirk Ryneveld following the death of Robert Bagnell in Vancouver in June. > > Bagnell was high on cocaine and other drugs when he was hit by a police Taser. He died at the scene. > > Nine people have died following circumstances in which police used a Taser in Canada since April 2003, four of them in British Columbia. [Canada’s federal prison guards to test stun guns this year](http://www.nupge.ca/news_2007/n11ja07a.htm) > [@](#): > > Ottawa (11 Jan. 2007) - Federal prison guards in Canada will be authorized to test the use of stun guns as a new weapon to control inmates. > > The tests will be carried out as a “strictly controlled and limited” pilot project later this year, reports the Kitchener-Waterloo Record. It quotes information obtained from Corrections Canada, through access to information legislation. > > The six-month project will involve two maximum-security prisons, including Millhaven near Kingston, Ont. The second prison has not been identified. > > Millhaven is the location of Guantanamo North, the small, intensely-secure “prison within a prison” opened by Ottawa last year to house terror suspects detained on the authority of security certificates. (The controversial certificates allow foreigners suspected of terrorist-related activities to be held without being charged.) > > Stun guns will be stored in control posts with other weapons now used by federal guards, including firearms, **pepper spray** and batons, says Corrections spokesperson Guy Campeau. Their use will be restricted to emergency response teams, typically comprised of 15 to 20 officers. Bolding mine. Pepper spray forms a major component of Ms. Davies horror-show script, probably because she couldn’t get any footage of guards torturing prisoners with the Chinese water torture. Looking forward to seeing grainy security camera footage of drunks being tortured by pepper spray in the Moose Jaw lockup. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/33 "2007-08-23T18:07:51Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] Realistically, how many people are going to watch a 50 minute video without at least some synopsis of what it’s about? [/QUOTE] No kidding. Does this thread offer college credit or something? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/34 "2007-08-23T18:21:20Z")
Appalling video, though certainly understandable reading some of the disgraceful comments on here. **’luc,** I’m afraid and saddened a the same time, that you’ve once gain hit the nail right on the head. I honestly don’t understand what’s happened to your country over my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/35 "2007-08-23T18:22:37Z")
In Spain of course all prisoners get a puppy and a flower. They are much more civilized over there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/36 "2007-08-23T18:30:07Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Appalling video, though certainly understandable reading some of the disgraceful comments on here. **'luc,** I’m afraid and saddened a the same time, that you’ve once gain hit the nail right on the head. I honestly don’t understand what’s happened to your country over my lifetime. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what you’re trying to say-- do you think prisons were better in the US 50 years? I doubt it. Look, we’re all pretty familiar with prison abuse. Believe it or not, we actually have some news outlets here in the colonies that have reported on it. Imagine that! It’s true, too-- you can read about it on the internets. Sorry, but this thread gets filed under R.O. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/37 "2007-08-23T18:30:22Z")
I am ashamed of brutalities commited in Spain because they are committed by humans. I take brutalities commited by Americans rather more personally. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/38 "2007-08-23T18:32:58Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Appalling video, though certainly understandable reading some of the disgraceful comments on here. **'luc,** I’m afraid and saddened a the same time, that you’ve once gain hit the nail right on the head. I honestly don’t understand what’s happened to your country over my lifetime. [/QUOTE] So you think things in American prisoners were more civilized back in the days of Alcatraz? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/39 "2007-08-23T18:37:15Z")
So I went and actually finished watching the rest of this blather, and it seems that this documentary has a few main points, all of which we are supposed to conflate into the idea that our prisons are hell incarnate. 1. A few alarming cases of guards going well beyond the bounds of normal or accepted behavior. When it was discovered what they did, they were disciplined, fired or brought up on charges. 2. Tasers, pepper spray and tear gas are used in order to subdue inmates who fight or do not comply with orders given by officers. 3. Prisons are overcrowded. Methods like Arpaio’s tent city are used to handle overcrowding, but the inmates don’t like being in tents. 4. Cops stick together and don’t like internal snitches. 5. Some prisons in Florida don’t allow camera crews to go on a tour. (I love the insinuation that there is some massive cover-up going on because a guard is calling his boss to see if the camera crew is allowed to film) Did I miss something? Is any of this new, or terrifying? Perhaps the thing which I find the most ridiculous, and the documentary returns to over and over again, is the taser/ pepper spray deal. There’s no question that prisoners get into fights with each other, and disobey the requests of the guards. What should the response be when a pair of guys (who may or may not be chartered accountants on the outside,) start whaling on each other? Do officers should just start punching the inmates to stop them. No? Okay, then officers should let the inmates fight it out. Still bad? How about lethal force, if (mostly) non-lethal options aren’t allowed? What options are left to the guards, other than perhaps distributing peer-mediation manuals to every inmate upon arrival? For the record, I’ve been pepper sprayed. It sucks. It’d sure stop me from fighting, or from disobeying someone. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613/40 "2007-08-23T18:42:18Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] In Spain of course all prisoners get a puppy and a flower. They are much more civilized over there. -XT [/QUOTE] Fuck-off once and for all, you fascist xenophobic (funny that, being a first generation **Latino** -American) prick! * * * **kid** , I wasn’t speaking merely about your prisons (although I am sure fifty years ago, you didn’t house the largest population of inmates IN THE WORLD. Police state, anyone?) but the overall hardening of your society – it’s becoming more and more about ME, ME, ME…and fuck the rest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abu-ghraib-was-awful-i-had-no-idea-that-worse-things-happened-in-the-us/416613.md?page=3)