# Abysmal judgement gene rears it's ugly head again-Kennedy stupidity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2006, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510 "2006-05-05T08:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/41 "2006-05-05T16:25:05Z")
The trouble with the meds he took is that they often end up putting people in a state where they do such non-volitional inappropriate things, but only become cognizant of what they’ve done **after** the fact. Yes, it’s a convenient excuse, but it’s also a recognized side-effect of those meds, especially in combination. So I won’t jump on the bandwagon condemning his behavior. Even before this incident, the drug company that makes Ambien was doing a LOT of damage control over increasing reports of people walking, eating, driving, and all in a sleep-like state. I do wish we had a serum blood alcohol to help complete the picture, though. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/42 "2006-05-05T16:27:05Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Given _whose_ history? You do know this is Patrick Kennedy, not Ted, right? That’s inferring that he was _capable_ of making any kind of judgment at all. Based on what I’ve read about one of the drugs he was taking (Ambien), it’s highly likely he had no idea what he was doing, in which case, it would be erroneous to call his actions a “misjudgment.” That’s inferring that he has any recollection of anything other than the obvious known facts; that he recalls having taken his prescribed medications and was later picked up by police after an accident and driven home. There is nothing to indicate he has any actual memory of any of his actions during the events. DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE! Keep those excuses coming, bitch, they’re amusing. So are you. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/43 "2006-05-05T16:28:50Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > etc… > You know, I always see the left here screaming at the top of their lungs that “Your guy did a similar thing” is not a defense (even in threads where the SUBJECT is the conduct at hand, and “your guys did it too” _IS_ a legitimate argument when bad behavior is being criticized as a partisan issue), yet it inevitably seems that it’s not the right who brings these things up, but the left. I wonder why? Hmmmm. Could it be that deep in your black little hearts you actually realize that there in no real difference between the power hungry bastards on the left and the power hungry bastards on the right except that the ones on the right are better at getting elected? I hope this is so, it gives me hope for the future. I’m here to dim that small ray of hope, **Dave**. I, firmly intrenched in the Civil Libertarian Left, didn’t bring up a “but they’re worse” arguement from stupidity. In fact, I joked that all of the Kennedys should just stay away from engine driven vehicles. Yet I believe there is a laaaaarge difference between the power hungry bastards on the right and the power hungry bastards on the left. _Especially_ when it comes to civil liberties. Sorry about that quashing hope thingy. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/44 "2006-05-05T16:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > You know, I always see the left here screaming at the top of their lungs that “Your guy did a similar thing” is not a defense (even in threads where the SUBJECT is the conduct at hand, and “your guys did it too” _IS_ a legitimate argument when bad behavior is being criticized as a partisan issue), yet it inevitably seems that it’s not the right who brings these things up, but the left. I wonder why? I have no idea why you see things that aren’t there. For one example, what the heck is “the left here”? For another, I for one would appreciate it if you could sketch out how one person or another typing a post to a message board, without even using so much as an exclamation point for emphasis, somehow constitutes “screaming at the top of their lungs.” For still another, what might be the general political stance of the person who felt the need to post this frankly rather pointless and stupid thread? Actually, I’ll hazard a guess that the reason you seem to see things that aren’t there may be that thick-lensed pair of ideological spectacles you are wearing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/45 "2006-05-05T16:30:00Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Given _whose_ history? You do know this is Patrick Kennedy, not Ted, right?. Patrick Kennedy has a history of substance abuse. Local laws may vary, but I would think that one is reasonably expected to know that Ambien can cause drowsiness and other side effects (the endless ads on TV say that you should not drive until you know how the drug is affecting you). If one does not follow instructions and take precautions, I don’t think that “the drugs did it” would be a satisfactory defense to driving while impaired. I would be uneasy about being on the road with some other posters, as their serum _tu quoque_ levels are probably extremely high. :dubious: But hey, why not go there. I was wondering about what contingency plan the Capitol/D.C. police might have for handling a suspected drunk driving incident involving Cynthia McKinney. (For the sake of the officers I hope it includes SWAT, hostage negotiators and a special racial sensitivity team). ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/46 "2006-05-05T16:31:35Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > etc… > You know, I always see the left here screaming at the top of their lungs that “Your guy did a similar thing” is not a defense (even in threads where the SUBJECT is the conduct at hand, and “your guys did it too” _IS_ a legitimate argument when bad behavior is being criticized as a partisan issue), yet it inevitably seems that it’s not the right who brings these things up, but the left. I wonder why? Hmmmm. Could it be that deep in your black little hearts you actually realize that there in no real difference between the power hungry bastards on the left and the power hungry bastards on the right except that the ones on the right are better at getting elected? I hope this is so, it gives me hope for the future. Actually I was appalled at the pseudo-science of suggesting there was a judgement gene. Also please bear in mind that from a European perspective, both US parties are right-wing. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/47 "2006-05-05T16:32:35Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > You do know it wasn’t Teddy who was stopped, right? I automatically thought it was Teddy. Instead it was Patrick. It’s now official, I am a fucking moron. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/48 "2006-05-05T16:43:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Local laws may vary, but I would think that one is reasonably expected to know that Ambien can cause drowsiness and other side effects (the endless ads on TV say that you should not drive until you know how the drug is affecting you). If one does not follow instructions and take precautions, I don’t think that “the drugs did it” would be a satisfactory defense to driving while impaired. Again, you are inferring that he _knew_ he was driving. [Google the phrase Ambien sleepwalking](http://www.google.com/search?q=ambien+sleepwalking&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official) and you’ll find thousands of relevant hits. > [@](#): > > [http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/viewcontent/78142.html](http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/viewcontent/78142.html) > > The most prescribed sleep medication in the United States, Ambien, may be linked to episodes of sleepwalking and related strange and dangerous behaviors, experts say–including incidents of nocturnal eating, phone conversations, shoplifting and even driving–of which the subject has no memory. > [@](#): > > [http://www.wcpo.com/wcpo/localshows/healthyliving/337a899f.html](http://www.wcpo.com/wcpo/localshows/healthyliving/337a899f.html) > > Updated: 03/10/06 08:46:38 > > News tonite of an alarming new trend creating problems on the roads: Drivers under the influence of a very popular sleeping pill. > > Doctors have reported incidents of “sleep-driving”…Where _ambien_ users get out of their beds and into a car and start driving! > > Experts say those at greatest risk are women, people taking high doses, and those who combine ambien with medications for anxiety, depression, or other disorders. And so on. There is a very strong likelihood that even after having followed the instructions and taken all precautions, Kennedy had no idea he had gotten into a car and started driving at 2:45AM until after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/49 "2006-05-05T16:45:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Local laws may vary, but I would think that one is reasonably expected to know that Ambien can cause drowsiness and other side effects (the endless ads on TV say that you should not drive until you know how the drug is affecting you). If one does not follow instructions and take precautions, I don’t think that “the drugs did it” would be a satisfactory defense to driving while impaired. Considering that he apparently was so fucked up by the drug that he thought Congress was in session at 3am, I think it’s a bit unreasonable to expect him to decide that driving into work is a bad idea because Ambien might make him drowsy. Outside of giving the keys to a neighbor, I’m not sure exactly what precautions can prevent someone in a walking sleep state from getting in the car and driving away. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/50 "2006-05-05T16:46:41Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > There is a very strong likelihood that even after having followed the instructions and taken all precautions, Kennedy had no idea he had gotten into a car and started driving at 2:45AM until after the fact. And especially considering that **who in the hell holds a Congressional vote at 2:45 am** I’m kinda suspecting that no, in fact he didn’t have to be at work and his drugged-out brain only convinced him he did. According to the linked article he’d been at work earlier, he drove home, he took meds. Then at 2:45 am he got into his car, convinced he had a vote to cast, and drove off. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/51 "2006-05-05T17:13:52Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > And especially considering that **who in the hell holds a Congressional vote at 2:45 am** Actually, that might explain quite a bit…, ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/52 "2006-05-05T17:20:42Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The only good thing is that our ideology is[kicking your ideology’s butt](http://www.scleroderma.org/medical/pulmonary_articles/sd_lungstudy_update.shtm): What exactly is the position of the scleroderma foundation on political polls? ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/53 "2006-05-05T17:33:54Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE! > Keep those excuses coming, bitch, they’re amusing. So are you. What the hell is this shit? **Shayna** makes a cogent, non-partisan argument that based on what we know, not only is Kennedy’s explanation plausible, but seriously brings into question his culpability. And then this is the lame-ass, shrill, pathetic garbage you manage to generate in response? Weak, man, weak. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/54 "2006-05-05T17:36:30Z")
> [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > What the hell is this shit? **Shayna** makes a cogent, non-partisan argument that based on what we know, not only is Kennedy’s explanation plausible, but seriously brings into question his culpability. And then this is the lame-ass, shrill, pathetic garbage you manage to generate in response? Weak, man, weak. I think we should wait till we have all the information. You know, we shouldn’t comment on an ongoing investigation. Anyone else want to add to the list? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/55 "2006-05-05T17:40:00Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > What exactly is the position of the scleroderma foundation on political polls? Sorry, wrong link. [Enjoy.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060505/ap_on_el_ge/republicans_ap_poll_4) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/56 "2006-05-05T17:40:42Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Again, you are inferring that he _knew_ he was driving. From the USA Today article 5/5: “He (Kennedy) _said he drove to the Capitol_ from his nearby home around 2:45 a.m…” I think he knew he was driving. > [@](#): > > [Google the phrase Ambien sleepwalking](http://www.google.com/search?q=ambien+sleepwalking&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official) and you’ll find thousands of relevant hits. And so on. There is a very strong likelihood that even after having followed the instructions and taken all precautions, Kennedy had no idea he had gotten into a car and started driving at 2:45AM until after the fact. Given the limited number of severe adverse reactions reported, we’ll have to disagree on the “strong likelihood”. And since no blood was drawn, we’ll never know just what mix of drugs might have been in Kennedy’s system. Just recently we had the dangerous drunk driving accident involving former Oklahoma State basketball coach Eddie Sutton. Immediately following the crash there was emphasis from supporters on the supposed role his physical problems played in the incident. Only later did it come out he was legally drunk, and apparently had been mixing pain pills and alcohol. Was Ambien the villain in Kennedy’s case, or a convenient scapegoat? Thanks to bad police procedure and/or favoritism, the truth will remain unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/57 "2006-05-05T17:42:05Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I dodn’t know breaking the genetic code has discovered such a gene. 😕 > Still if it’s ‘bash the political family time’: > > - at least he didn’t invade Iraq > - at least his wife hasn’t killed anyone (using a car) > - at least his daughters haven’t regularly broken the drinking laws, while the Secret Service stand idly by I’m not a fan of President Bush–I think he’s the most vile, incompetent president of the last 50 years–but WHY, exactly, would you think the Secret Service should intervene when his (formerly) underage daughters drank before the age of 21? Jenna & Barbara’s secret service detail exists to protect THEM from harm, not to enforce state & local laws. If the girls think they are going to rat them out for committing a minor crime, then the detail is less effective. It seems to me that for the SS to intervene in such instances (except as necessary to protect the girls’ safety) would be both unprofessional and conter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/58 "2006-05-05T17:42:29Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I think we should wait till we have all the information. You know, we shouldn’t comment on an ongoing investigation. > > Anyone else want to add to the list? > > -Joe Call me dense, but I’m not getting what you’re saying here. Try again? ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/59 "2006-05-05T17:42:47Z")
It certainly seems to be an unwritten rule that every time a member of the Kennedy family so much as farts in an elevator, some people bring up Chappaquiddick so fast you’d think Mary Jo was their mom. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/60 "2006-05-05T18:48:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > From the USA Today article 5/5: “He (Kennedy) _said he drove to the Capitol_ from his nearby home around 2:45 a.m…” > > I think he knew he was driving. I fail to see how you can have the vaguest idea what he knew or didn’t know, other than the facts that we _all_ know and which would have been obvious after the incident. And one of the most obvious facts _is_ that “he drove to the Capitol from his nearby home around 2:45,” which doesn’t imply in any way, shape or form that he was actually aware he was doing so _as he was doing it_. Or that if he was, that he was in complete control of his actions at the time. > [@](#): > > Given the limited number of severe adverse reactions reported, we’ll have to disagree on the “strong likelihood”. And since no blood was drawn, we’ll never know just what mix of drugs might have been in Kennedy’s system. Define “limited number.” Clearly the number of severe adverse reactions reported aren’t _un_limited and infinite – that’s kindof a no-brainer. But there are enough incidents that this has become not only a major news item in recent months, but a serious problem complete with lawsuits for the manufacturer. The only thing I agree with you on is that we’ll never know with any certainty, given the gross incompetence of the local police. But their behavior hardly speaks to the veracity or not of Kennedy’s claims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510.md?page=4)