# Abysmal judgement gene rears it's ugly head again-Kennedy stupidity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2006, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510 "2006-05-05T08:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/161 "2006-05-08T12:52:17Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Apparently the side effects of Ambien aren’t a secret, nor are they rare, as **QtM** , other lay dopers and **Bricker** are knowledgeable thereof. Mr. Kennedy isn’t disadvantaged with respect to his ability to obtain information about drugs he’s taking, so we’re back to my original posit that he’s stupid and his judgement sucks. Is your opinion, then, that all users of Ambien are stupid and exercise bad judgement? They all are at risk for these side effects. I may be wrong, but cars that can operate at night tend to be fairly common, and most people don’t have time locks on their bedroom doors. AFAICT, Mr Kennedy is not at any greater risk to have an episode like this one than anybody else who uses Ambien. Therefore, I would not expect him to take more precautions than anybody else using this very popular drug. If the drug is so dangerous that people need to take extraordinary precautions to keep the populace safe, then it should not be on the market. I can’t fault Kennedy for that, it is the FDA’s job. I feel weird saying that taking an FDA approved medicine is, in an of itself, an irresponsible act. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/162 "2006-05-08T13:03:48Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Stupid is as stupid does. There speaks the voice of experience. Like I said, you and **crowmanyclouds** aren’t going to come to the same conclusions as non-stupid people do. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/163 "2006-05-08T16:14:26Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Interesting. I assume the legal difference between this and deciding to drive after a few drinks is that there’s laws specifically to address alcohol? And unless there’s a law specifically against driving while under the influence of a particular drug, the defence that the decision was made under the influence of said drug can be made? > [@SteveG1](#): > > This question is mostly directed to Bricker. > > Am I correct in thinking that there are differences or extenuating circumstances that apply? > > If someone drinks to excess (or whatever the legal limit is) and drives, he is guilty because he was aware of the DUI laws, chose to drink and chose to drive, knowing the effects of alcohol. If someone fires up a bong and goes driving, he is DUI because again, he knows what the effects and the law are. > > If someone is taking a prescribed medication and nobody made him aware of the side effects, he may reasonably be considered to be not at fault. If this same medication is later shown to cause such things as sleepwalking (or sleep driving), would it be reasonable to say it is not the person’s fault? > > Am I correct, or out in left field somewhere? Voluntary intoxication is generally not a defense. That is… if you get drunk, you cannot then use your drunkeness to say, “Hey, I was so drunk, I didn’t know what I was doing, so I couldn’t form the requisite intent to commit a crime!” As you might imagine, though, it’s not voluntary intoxication if someone slips you a drug in your Shirley Temple. The question is whether you knew, or should have known, that what happened could result from what you took. In this case, it’s quite a stretch to say that Rep. Kennedy should have known that taking a legal sleep aid could result in this sort of result. NOW, of course, he knows; if he drives into some concrete barriers next month and points at the Ambien, it’s not reasonable. But to expect him to know about this somewhat rare potential side-effect ahead of time is not reasonable. And legally speaking, if it’s not reasonable for him to have known, then his actions cannot be criminal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/164 "2006-05-08T16:52:42Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Apparently the side effects of Ambien aren’t a secret, nor are they rare, as **QtM** , other lay dopers and **Bricker** are knowledgeable thereof. Mr. Kennedy isn’t disadvantaged with respect to his ability to obtain information about drugs he’s taking, so we’re back to my original posit that he’s stupid and his judgement sucks. You could be right, but there just isn’t any way of knowing. Ambien is a legal sleep aid, prescribed (I assume) by Kennedy’s doctor. Now, if he slipped himself an ambien after he got behind the wheel, that might be another matter. I just don’t see how you can fault the guy for taking it at home, though. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/165 "2006-05-08T17:07:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Voluntary intoxication is generally not a defense. That is… if you get drunk, you cannot then use your drunkeness to say, “Hey, I was so drunk, I didn’t know what I was doing, so I couldn’t form the requisite intent to commit a crime!” > > As you might imagine, though, it’s not voluntary intoxication if someone slips you a drug in your Shirley Temple. > > The question is whether you knew, or should have known, that what happened could result from what you took. In this case, it’s quite a stretch to say that Rep. Kennedy should have known that taking a legal sleep aid could result in this sort of result. NOW, of course, he knows; if he drives into some concrete barriers next month and points at the Ambien, it’s not reasonable. But to expect him to know about this somewhat rare potential side-effect ahead of time is not reasonable. And legally speaking, if it’s not reasonable for him to have known, then his actions cannot be criminal. Thanks for your answer. So, if Kennedy didn’t know, then he can’t / shouldn’t be roasted. If he did know, then that’s a whole different situation. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/166 "2006-05-08T17:09:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You could be right, but there just isn’t any way of knowing. Ambien is a legal sleep aid, prescribed (I assume) by Kennedy’s doctor. Now, if he slipped himself an ambien after he got behind the wheel, that might be another matter. I just don’t see how you can fault the guy for taking it at home, though. Maybe you missed what the moron said in Post #130. > [@danceswithcats](#): > > Maybe I’m the odd fellow, but I read the paperwork on a prescribed medication before I take it. If there’s a likelihoood that taking Fuckwitase will cause me to dance in the street with a Samurai sword, I’ll choose another med, or make sure a big and strong enough friend is nearby to keep me from engaging in stupitude. Apparently drugs like Ambien should only be taken in the presence of someone who is available to watch you around the clock. Unfortunately, **dansewithcats** has clearly demonstrated that he is perfectly capable of “engaging in stupitude” without the aid of pharmaceuticals. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/167 "2006-05-08T17:10:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > NOW, of course, he knows; if he drives into some concrete barriers next month and points at the Ambien, it’s not reasonable… So, are you saying that he can be criminally charged if he takes ambien again and ends up in a similar situation? That’s basically saying that he can’t ever take ambien again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/168 "2006-05-08T17:44:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So, are you saying that he can be criminally charged if he takes ambien again and ends up in a similar situation? That’s basically saying that he can’t ever take ambien again. No - but having had this effect once, he needs to take reasonable precautions – car keys secured with a trusted family member, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/169 "2006-05-08T17:46:32Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Thanks for your answer. So, if Kennedy didn’t know, then he can’t / shouldn’t be roasted. If he did know, then that’s a whole different situation. Right. If, for example, evidence should come to light that last month, he had a blackout-driving episode on Ambien and it was hushed up, then the whole picture changes. And, as I suggested above, if he NOW has an episode of some kind, he can’t raise the Ambien issue as a defense. But so far as I’m aware, this is the first and only instance of the medication causing him problems. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/170 "2006-05-08T18:00:29Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > This mystery woman who refuses to come forward or give her name, is actually a _hostess_, not even a waitress, let alone a bartender. Therefore she’s in even less of a position to know whether or not he had any alcohol, seeing as how she didn’t actually serve him. Thanks for the link. For the benefit of **Jackmannii** , in case he doesn’t have an account and can’t read the article (bolding mine), If we accept that Patrick has no memory of anything that happened after he got home and took his Ambien, how do we account for the glaring discrepancy between his statement that he drove home after the votes on Capitol Hill and his presence in the Hawk & Dove that evening? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/171 "2006-05-08T18:18:58Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > If we accept that Patrick has no memory of anything that happened after he got home and took his Ambien, how do we account for the glaring discrepancy between his statement that he drove home after the votes on Capitol Hill and his presence in the Hawk & Dove that evening? Well, let’s see - Either he drove home, took an Ambien, went to bed, and then by purest coincidence became one of the not-exactly-commonplace-but-still-not-all-that-common people who suffered from the publicized effects of Ambien. So he involuntarily got up and drove to the Capitol (nearly crashing his car) under the impression that there was a vote scheduled at 2:30 in the morning. He has absolutely no memory of the evening, except that he wasn’t drinking and went straight home, and that the hostess who saw him drink and the cop who arrested him are both mistaken that he had been drinking, or A cocaine addict/alcoholic/pain pill addict suffering from bipolar disease and whose family of origin has a long history of chemical addiction and dependency and who has a history of bizarre behavior had a relapse and blackout. Hmmm… Incidentally, is there any hard evidence that he did take an Ambien that night? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/172 "2006-05-08T18:45:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said, you and **crowmanyclouds** aren’t going to come to the same conclusions as non-stupid people do. Your name calling is not important, now that we have your admission that you lied about a cite that the Kennedy family bought off the authorities. One would hope this would serve as a lesson to you, but somehow I doubt it. Once a liar always a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/173 "2006-05-08T19:37:51Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Your name calling is not important, now that we have your admission that you lied about a cite that the Kennedy family bought off the authorities. If you are merely going to make things up, it might save server resources if you didn’t bother quoting me. Especially if the words are too hard for you, containing as they do more than two syllables. It is entirely clear (as if there were any doubt) that you are too stupid to understand normal conversation, or indeed any concept beyond potty training. If that. Fortunately, it serves to demonstrate the depths to which mouth-breathers such as yourself must descend to insulate themselves from inconvenient facts. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/174 "2006-05-08T20:38:02Z")
Well, there you have it. **Shodan** ’s insults are bigger and angrier, he must be right! BTW, count me amongst the persons who is unable to find support for the notion of the Kennedy family buying influence in the linked article. A little help would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/175 "2006-05-08T20:47:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fortunately, it serves to demonstrate the depths to which mouth-breathers such as yourself must descend to insulate themselves from inconvenient facts. Of which you have provided precisely none. You made a claim, I called you on it, and you provided a bogus cite which did not support the claim you made. Everyone is waiting for you to put up or shut up. Being incapable of doing the former, the interests of this board would be far better served if you did the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/176 "2006-05-08T21:00:57Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Of which you have provided precisely none. You made a claim, I called you on it, and you provided a bogus cite which did not support the claim you made. Everyone is waiting for you to put up or shut up. Being incapable of doing the former, the interests of this board would be far better served if you did the latter. I wouldn’t call it a bogus cite. Here’s the revelant quote: > [@](#): > > There was what former DCCC aide Erik Smith refers to as ''the airport episode," when a clearly frustrated Kennedy was videotaped in 2000 shoving a female security guard. The guard sued, and Kennedy paid a settlement. How, if he clearly assaulted a security guard, did he not get charged with anything? How was he allowed to make a settlement? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/177 "2006-05-08T21:10:05Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > How, if he clearly assaulted a security guard, did he not get charged with anything? Since it didn’t go to trial, it is certainly not clear that he assaulted anybody. > [@](#): > > How was he allowed to make a settlement? Uh, because he was not charged with a crime. He was sued in civil court, which more often than not ends in a settlement between the parties. NOthing untoward here at all. Now, if Shodan can prove that he was not charged because the authorities were paid off by the Kennedys, as he alleged, then we would be getting somewhere. I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/178 "2006-05-08T21:18:37Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Since it didn’t go to trial, it is certainly not clear that he assaulted anybody. If they had tape of it I’d say that would be pretty clear. > [@](#): > > Uh, because he was not charged with a crime. He was sued in civil court, which more often than not ends in a settlement between the parties. NOthing untoward here at all. How is it that he wasn’t charged with assault? If I were taped shoving a security guard I would be. > [@](#): > > Now, if Shodan can prove that he was not charged because the authorities were paid off by the Kennedys, as he alleged, then we would be getting somewhere. I won’t hold my breath. He didn’t exactly allege anything. he said “I think”, therefore he was offering an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/179 "2006-05-08T21:24:45Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > He didn’t exactly allege anything. he said “I think”, therefore he was offering an opinion. And I asked him what led him to believe that, besides blind hatred for all things Kennedy. And here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510/180 "2006-05-08T21:27:57Z")
My point is that you can’t lie about an opinion, by its very nature. If I say that I think OJ did it I’m giving my opinion on the information, I don’t think that if someone asked me for a cite I would have to substantiate it because it’s my opinion. Anyway, the bottom line is that what went down appears to be shady, which is not unheard of with the Kennedys (my opinion). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abysmal-judgement-gene-rears-its-ugly-head-again-kennedy-stupidity/355510.md?page=10)