Academically/Intellectually Gifted Education is problematic but necessary

Great OP. As someone who would probably have benefited from more challenges in elementary school and a teacher for about a decade I agree with all of it.

A statement that stuck with me from an otherwise mostly forgotten opinion piece is that education research only tells us what works best for kids within our current system of education. I often wonder how we can get past the unnatural “divide everyone by age” system that so weirdly has come to define most social interaction and learning both within and outside school all through childhood. Yes, it’s an easy short cut and alternatives add complexity and are scary, but the evidence that it serves very few students well is overwhelming.

Personally I think more individualized learning is the future. Let kids spend more time on topics and subjects they are interested in and succeed in and work on tying other learning in with that. Hopefully leaving them more motivated for some time out of each day working on their barriers for progress. But it might be difficult to get “there from here”.

That’s a matter of acceleration versus enrichment. The goal shouldn’t be to push kids to a point they aren’t mature enough to get to, but to encourage them going beyond what is taught in class if they are ready for it. Which is harder on teachers than either giving them next year’s workbook or depending on them to teach other students. Which they may or may not do well.
In fact I’d bet they wouldn’t do it well. GATE kids sometimes just get stuff, without consciously going through all the steps. That’s not good preparation for teaching kids who do need to go through all the steps.
Drill and practice, sure. But that’s not teaching.
I didn’t become a professor when I discovered that I didn’t enjoy, and wasn’t good at, teaching kids who didn’t get computer science as intuitively as I did. That was on me, not on them.

Hah! Three weeks ago, I started working with a third-grade group on an extension of a math idea. They’d been learning how to use a “give-and-take” strategy for three-digit addition, that goes something like this (it’s way easier to explain with number lines and pictures):

367 + 446 = 367 + (3) + 443 = 367 + (3) + (30) + 413 = 400 + 413 = 813

Knowing that my cohort would have gotten this quickly, I gave them the challenge to solve similar problems mentally and taught them some shortcuts for doing so. The goal, I said, was to be able to solve all three-digit addition problems even if you didn’t have access to a calculator or pencil and paper.

This week, I got a call one evening from a third grade teacher (who’s a wonderful teacher and a friend). “One of my students who works with you,” she said, “turned in a test with an addition problem. He got the wrong answer, and instead of showing work, he wrote, ‘I did it in my head, because Mr. Dorkness told me I could do it that way.’”

So this week’s lesson was exactly the opposite. I showed them the benefits of writing work in an organized, clear fashion (helps your teacher correct your misconceptions, and more importantly helps you check your own work). And I taught them to hear “Show your work” as “Prove your answer.”

A lot of AIG/GATE/whatever kids can do simple math almost intuitively, and that’s a benefit and a problem. They need specific instruction sometimes in order to develop habits necessary for more advanced work. It’s a flaw common among such students to believe that showing work equals not being very bright, that true geniuses never struggle, and that if they struggle or if they engage in any real work, it means they’re a dummy. I spend a fair amount of time trying to teach them that truly great students find the place of struggle and live there, and that truly great students are able to prove their work in beautiful and irrefutable fashion.

I broadly agree with all that LHoD said. It will be interesting to see what the counterarguments are, and I may chine in at that time.

My own experience with AIG is mixed and frankly a bit funny so I’ll share the story.

When I was in grade 1, they did a pilot project for math. They allowed students to do math at their own pace. I blasted through grade 1 and 2 math (everything that was available) so they brought me grade 3 math from the grade 2 class (also in the pilot project). After I had completed that they were kind of out of material. So they gave me a grade 4 textbook. They wanted me to skip a grade (there was no AIG at that school), but my parents declined fearing that I would be bullied.

So in grade 4, we moved provinces. In the new province, I had to take a placement exam. I was nervous and completed bombed it. I was placed in a remedial class. I was VERY bored. Everything was too easy. And the remedial students were bullied for being stupid. So worst of both worlds.

After two years, my homeroom teacher noticed that I was getting 100% in everything, everytime, and completing assignments and exams in minutes. She went to the principal and asked that I be given the placement exam again.

This time around I got 100% on the exam and was moved from the remedial class to the advanced class. And it was great! I had enjoyed school from kindergarten to grade 4 until we moved, and hated the two years in remedial class. Being in the advanced class, I was happy again.

So, I guess what I’m saying is, that it is elitist. I was on the receiving end of that when I was in the remedial class. But it is also necessary, because it was the only place where I was happy being educated.

Ohhh I have so many things to say.

For anyone that doesn’t know, I teach hyper-advanced academics, too, but at the HS level: I’m at a high school where 25% of the kids are in Calculus as Freshmen and we don’t have “normal” classes: shit’s all AP. We’d have AP Study Hall if we could. I also have a 9 year old who’s “GT identified”. So I work with these kids, but mostly the older ones.

Far and away, my problem with GT education is that it still carries this idea that “gifted” kids all share some ineffable quality that manifests itself in different ways but that ultimately springs from the same source, some inherent difference that gives them deep and special needs that the normies just can’t understand. And forgive me for saying this, LHoD, but the GT teachers in my son’s district are among the worst for perpetuating this. I pull my hair out at meetings because it’s all like “Well, you know that life is a little different with a Gifted Child” and everyone nods and humble brags about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl in Training they have. It’s the worst Mommy Wars scene I know. We laughed at the Indigo Child people, but these aren’t much different.

The thing is, in actual pedagogy, I feel like we moved away from that model and toward a “growth mindset” model like, 15 years ago. So when my son was tested for GT and I started going to these meetings, I felt I fell through a wormhole to 1992. And the GT classes seemed really rooted in this idea that it wasn’t about advanced anything. It was all super project-based in a way that seemed more about performance than learning, to me: it was creative projects that the parents would “help” a lot with. It was focused on unleashing that “gifted” quality, not actually learning more stuff. And I always felt like my fairly logical-sequential son’s fantastic math and verbal ability was sort of treated as inferior to kids who were more into self-expression. My son’s the type of kid who is way more interested in the world than in himself, if that makes sense. GT didn’t seem designed for that.

My school doesn’t feel like that model at all. We work really, really hard to always talk in terms of skills: if you have these skills, take these classes. If you have that skill gap, this is how to remediate it. I think it helps that math is our focus, and math is really something that rewards practice. So our culture is one of skill mastery. We don’t care about ineffable qualities. But I still have parents who want to talk about ITBS scores from 3rd grade and use that to defend the idea that their kid is somehow special and deserves better. It’s frustrating. There is an explicitly GT HS magnet in our building, and they have more of an “ineffable quality” aspect to their culture. My nerdy little Muggle children make fun of them; they make fun of us for, I dunno, being Muggles.

My husband is a SAHP and this year we opted for pure homeschooling instead of remote school, and it’s been wonderful. He’s challenged, he likes it, he’s learning a ton, and it only takes half the time school takes. Next year, the district I teach in is opening a new “hybrid school”. Kids go two days a week and the rest is done at home. Principal is very open to say, us swapping out the math curriculum for one of our own or carving out time in the school day for Latin. I am over the moon about this: we have always “homeschooled” after school with him, because he likes to learn and as two teachers, teaching is how we relate to children. But I have been really worried that as he gets older and starts to get homework, our stuff will be pushed aside. Now, he can have the social interaction and the experience of other adults telling him what to do (which he needs) but there will still be time to develop his interests, as well. I recognize this wouldn’t work for everyone, but for us it’s far superior to the GT pull-out model.

I recall a caller a decade ago (2010) calling into a radio talk show to complain that his gifted daughter’s teacher refused to let her “get ahead” though she was obviously way ahead of her peers in the classroom, saying “it wouldn’t be as equal” to let a gifted student move on ahead.

While AIG education may be problematic, it’s necessary to avoid wasting potential. The way some AIG opponents talk, it’s almost as if they would have preferred someone like Albert Einstein be held back to make his peers feel better.

Completely agree, which is why I don’t think advanced students should be teaching to their own peer group, at least not till maybe college age. Do the “Betsy/Molly model” as in my quoted excerpt, and have advanced kids spend some of their time helping instruct people who are officially at a lower level than they are.

I really did like the excerpt you posted. But I think in a modern larger more uniform classroom, that probably translates as “lead an entire Year 9 class down to the Year 7s, and get all of them to pass on their knowledge to the younger kids, sitting one-on-one”. Which would be really cool, in a mentor/buddy kind of way, but different to figuring out what to do with varying abilities in the same year

My sister’s advanced high-school French class did that with helping local middle-school French classes. Yes, I agree that small-group/individual education models don’t scale up well to large groups in many cases. To me, that says that we ought to be focusing on the small-group and individual education models that really do let students learn at their own pace.

So I agree with almost everything you say except the part where you imply that it was the program that was racist. I think that society can lead to racial disparities in these programs but I think the belief that disparity within the program means that the program is racist needs to be reexamined.

And when you used objective criteria like the cogat, what institutional racism was influencing who qualified? ISTM that if the test was racist, then there wouldn’t be such a pro-asian bias in test results.

There is an entire generation of graduates from selective colleges and universities that graduate with the realization that the black and hispanic kids are very unlikely to be on deans list and much more likely to be at the bottom of the class than other classmates. What conclusions might they reach? In contrast, the graduates of the UC schools in california never have this problem. And while this means that the students at the top UC schools like UCLA and UC Berkeley don’t see many black and hispanic classmates, the other 7 UC schools see better results for much larger populations of black/hispanic students.

I believe that the more subjectivity you inject into the process, the more of this you will see.

I love this quote. I will be using it frequently.

This. Put kids where they can thrive. This would also mitigate the issues associated with redshirting: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-convince-my-husband-that-morality-is-more-important-than-gain/928188

As I mentioned in the other thread, I attended a school system with no sort of gifted or advanced education, and my school even had no streaming for the majority of subjects.

My overriding memories of my school days are of boredom and frustration. By the far the most damaging aspect in the long term is that I didn’t have to put any effort in, and didn’t learn how to work hard - or how to struggle, as someone put it - until far too late. Most of my friends say the same. My secondary school even managed to make me dislike maths, which had been my favourite subject, and I didn’t start to like it again until Sixth Form. As I result I choose not to study Further Maths, something I still regret because it put me behind at university.

I used to help my younger sister with her maths homework. I would try to explain it so she could understand, and she would just get more confused the more I tried to explain. All she wanted was an algorithm she could memorise and follow. At university I took a course on maths education, and they said people who had to struggle to understand something themselves made the best teachers. There did seem to be an inverse correlation between how much of a genius our lecturers were, and how good they were at teaching. :slight_smile:

Economies of scale? The assembly line model is pretty efficient even if its not optimal.

I prefer the minor league baseball system.

Start everyone in kindergarten and advance them as they are able.

Not everyone makes it to the majors.

It is indeed a good quote. I hope my daughter’s education will follow this principle and not the ‘one size fits all’ system of mine.

I did teach the geniuses in my classes really well. The rest, probably not so much. The world did not suffer from me going into industrial research instead of academia.

There is evidence that eliminating tracking increases drop out rates, I will look for the study.

I don’t agree with everything but I can’t argue with the facts, here is a link:

Around here, the more subjective the criteria, the whiter the students at the magnet school get. The more objective the criteria, the more asian the students get. You do not get the sort of demographic profile that some people want. The solution being presented at more and more of the most selective magnet programs across the country has been to turn to lotteries.

Social class accounts for a very large chunk of the disparity here but the disparity in social class might very well be the result of racism.

I think this means that kids should be evaluated more frequently for tracking.

I think I should clarify that affirmative action is unconstitutional in california.

An AIG program may be racist not because those testing/screening the kids are racist, but because of the socio-economic effects of racism and multi-generational poverty. Who is more likely to be an advanced reader, for example? A kid whose family has a small library of several thousand books, where everyone reads for leisure at least one or two days a week, if not every day, or the kid whose parents are working two jobs each to make ends meet and where there are no books except maybe a Bible and the kid’s own battered textbooks, where there is no leisure reading? It’s not the a poor/black kid can’t get ahead - I personally know of a family with a functionally illiterate mother mired in poverty who managed to produce a half-dozen children who grew up to all get college degrees - but the poor kids have a huge strike against them to start. It’s like starting a hundred-yard dash 20 yards behind everyone else starting - if you’re Usain Bolt you might win, but most folks don’t have much chance to get ahead in those circumstances.

In other words, the effects of racism might be doing their worst damage long before the kids reach your classroom.

Which is not to discount that individual racism, either overt or unconscious, could and probably are having an impact.

When I was in AIG classes growing up we didn’t have any Japanese kids in them - because their parents found US AIG insufficient and preferred their kids spend their off hours in “cram schools” specifically for the children of Japanese executives who could afford the tuition because they fully intended their children to return to Japan and go to university there and not in the (in their eyes) woefully inadequate American system.

Yeah, the folks who think White Privilege and/or money buys everything, including intelligence. They irritate the crap out of me. That’s been an unspoken but on-going problem for… well, centuries if not forever. It’s not just racism but also classism.

Perhaps the Black (and other minority) parents have more objective view of their kids out of necessity. Or maybe not. Maybe they’re just less accustomed to automatic privilege.

The problem is when the AIG students’ “tailored” education becomes all about tutoring other students, when instead of hiring more teachers a district decides to “solve” the problem by forcing students to become teachers with the added “bonus” of not having to pay them for this labor.

But that only happens some places.

There’s also the issue that gifted/talented kids are not usually equally gifted in all areas. So a kid who is a math prodigy might have trouble with expressing themselves in writing and need remedial language classes even while they are working with advanced mathematics. Or conversely a kid with amazing language skills might need remedial math. Or maybe there’s a kid with an amazing talent in one area but is just average in all others. And, above all, going to school is also about learning how to get along in society so even the most intelligent child needs socializing and needs to interact with average people so they can relate to other adults when they’re grown and not exist in a “Mensa bubble”.

One of my nephews was extremely gifted in some areas, to the point that when he hit high school arrangements were made for him to take classes at the local university because by age 14 there simply wasn’t anything more the public schools could do for him. But outside that narrow focus he attended normal classes and in fact my sister and her husband INSISTED he play at least one sport a year both so he’d get proper exercise but also so he’d learn to interact with average kids doing something where he was only average (turns out he loved baseball) because it shouldn’t just be about academics but producing a well-rounded person.

Colleges are to an extent self-selecting. Not everyone makes it all the way through college, we however must ensure that everyone makes it through at least junior high.
And in the US at least everyone learns everything, up until high school where some kids may go into vocational training. For the most part in college you can select a major that meets your abilities.
In some parts of Europe kids get tracked early. My son-in-law is German, and he got tracked as not being ready for academics young. It was either unjust or because he was immature, since when he got it together he found that the only college degree he could get was in a secretarial school (which had some benefits.) He got a Masters in Business (not an MBA.) I’d rather have our system.

I sincerely believe that I owe a LOT to that teacher. If not for her, then I could have languished in remedial classes all the way to high school. I think maybe it does make sense to check periodically. With all of the data analytics available now, it should be relatively easy to note when a student if outperforming the norm.

Excuse me I need to go propose another grant to my supervisor.

And I’m back. But yeah, obviously there are costs and such. I don’t think it necessarily trivial, but imagine how different my life would have been if not for that second test? Would I be a scientist now? Maybe, but there’s a good chance, that I would not. And humanity would suffer as a result (I’m kidding, just channelling a little Sheldon Cooper there).

This was precisely my experience with math in about 2nd grade. My math and verbal abilities were approximately equal according to all the standardized testing, such that I ended up in all kinds of gifted classes at various points, but just normally gifted, if that makes sense. Meanwhile, many of my friends were serious math geniuses (as in “admitted to the Ph.D. program at Cal Tech without finishing a bachelor’s degree first” kind of geniuses).

At one point I got stuck on long division and needed some extra help, so the teacher had one of my math genius friends tutor me. Except he genuinely didn’t understand where I was getting stuck because it was all completely intuitive to him. It ended up being an extremely frustrating experience for both of us. In the end, even though all the standardized testing said I was good at math, I ended up hating it.

Most school systems give kids an annual assessment test. This seems like a pretty good opportunity to move kids around a bit.