# ACC poaching of the Big East: Dirty pool in the NCAA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450 "2003-06-30T23:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/21 "2003-07-01T19:00:14Z")
What’s left of the Big East, The MAC, Sun Belt, C-USA, other small conferences, and the remaining independents need to consider forming geographically logical super conferences, maintaining the older rivalries within divisions, with a playoff. Not just one game. A super conference of mid-majors (with three divisions, let’s say) could have a two round playoff. Three division winners, one wild card. The winner would almost have to be considered a BCS team. All those stats. in the BCS, quality wins and such,\* would favor such a team. I think the NCAA might have to bend a few rules. Nothing they haven’t done before, just adding a game. \*It’s mostly alchemy, voodoo, computer hacking, and witchcraft. I’m pretty sure about that. Ask any Miami fan. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/22 "2003-07-01T19:17:41Z")
**Duke** - Notre Dame isn’t going to join a conference in football as long as they have their billion dollar TV contract. And why should they? On top of the money - Notre Dame’s national mystic might be harmed by finishing 3rd or 4th in a conference once too many times. Why do that when they can beat the hell out of Army or Navy on TV - AND have a BCS spot reserved. I don’t see where they gain. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/23 "2003-07-01T19:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Duke_ > Actually, I think the ACC will be gunning for Louisville next. There’s an article on [espn.com](http://espn.com) addressing this, and saying it won’t happen because Louisville is not in the ACC class academically (imagine that). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*I think a more logical fit as a 12th team for the ACC would be West Virginia. \*\* I’d agree … but WV would also be a great fit to stay if Marshall can be brought into the Big East ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/24 "2003-07-01T19:33:00Z")
I understand Notre Dame put out feelers to the ACC, but they wanted to be able to keep their TV contract and non-ACC schedule. The ACC has said “no” to that prospect. If you’re in the ACC, you play an ACC schedule. Period. (This will be a problem for Notre Dame joining _any_ conference.) I have heard the “Louisville to the ACC rumors,” as well, and I also saw a quote from Pitino to the effect that he was not happy in CUSA. I feel sure that one way or another, the ACC will try to pick up another team. Maybe they’ll wait until the Big East implodes (which should be any day now) and pick up Pitt or WVU. Geographic logic would argue for Pitt to the Big Ten (as the natural rival of Penn State) and WVU to the ACC, putting both conferences over the twelve-team mark. But again, I’m just not sure WVU is sexy enough, TV-revenue-wise, for the ACC. Louisville is sexier, though geographically awkward. Florida or Georgia to the ACC is an interesting notion, and there were some voices at Georgia who were lobbying for such a jump about ten years ago. They were quickly shouted down at the time. I still don’t see it happening. Too much SEC tradition there. Don’t know how Florida feels about it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/25 "2003-07-01T19:41:05Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s an article on [espn.com](http://espn.com) addressing this, and saying it won’t happen because Louisville is not in the ACC class academically (imagine that). Interesting. That was the logic at Georgia, by the way, when the idea of moving to the ACC was kicked around a few years back. The thought (among those in favor of the jump) was that it would be a step up academically from the SEC. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/26 "2003-07-01T20:04:46Z")
Big deal. Big varsity sports is at heart and center immoral and unethical to begin with. It teaches that you should get away with any bribe or “gift” that you can and that it’s “wrong” to discipline a school that doesn’t follow the rules in permitting kickbacks to “student”-atheletes. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/27 "2003-07-01T20:21:47Z")
> [@](#): > > What happens next, failing stronger NCAA rules? The Big 10 will make one last offer to Notre Dame, and failing that, will smell the Big East’s blood and take Pitt, WVU, or maybe 'Cuse to get to 12. The ACC will bestow their favors on UCF or maybe USF to get to 12, and add a homecoming opponent for everyone else. The Big East will mend relations with BC and Cuse and poach CUSA, maybe the MAC, but will be stuck in a permanent second-tier non-BCS slot with the likes of Mountain West. There isn’t a chance in hell that the Big Ten will offer a spot to Notre Dame. They weren’t at all happy with ND’s arrogance (which the ACC has now seen) regarding their TV deals and schedule planning. The Big Ten is a pretty arrogant conference themselves, and I seriously doubt they will pander to the likes of Notre Dame. It isn’t even likely that the Big Ten will expand just to have a championship game. It really isn’t to the advantage of the conference to have a tough championship game late in the season. Say a 10-0 Ohio State/Michigan plays a 9-1 Iowa/Wisconsin/Purdue/Illinois at the end of the season, both having won their divisions. Instead of having OSU go to the automatic BCS game (and probably the national championship), AND probably have Iowa get one of the other bids to the BCS games, you have the chance of OSU losing to Iowa and only having one Big Ten team in a BCS game, getting the automatic bid. Big bowl games mean more money for the conference. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/28 "2003-07-01T20:49:06Z")
The Big Ten HAS offered a spot to Notre Dame several times, though not completely formally, including just 2-3 years ago. Yes, they have a big TV contract, but it will expire pretty soon, and they’re simply not good enough to command that kind of money the next time. Without it, they’ll have trouble filling a schedule as an independent, and much of their traditional cachet is gone IMHO. Big bowl game money is almost guaranteed at the highest levels anyway, but a conference championship game as well is even more gravy. I do enjoy the remarks about “academic standards” at some of the schools mentioned. Just window-dressing, we all agree, right? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/29 "2003-07-01T21:25:25Z")
Reported today on the local sports talk station was the fact the NC State threw a last minute spanner in the works of a 3 team expansion because NCS’s president is an alumni of and also on the board of Notre Dame, and she wanted the third spot held for the Irish, not that there is a snowball’s chance of that happening. Without that, the ACC prolly would have grabbed BC or 'Cuse too. Shame of it is, there is a school that is perfectly positioned to balance the ACC size wise (almost 20,000 students), geographicly (Baltimore, a city that is not totally penetrated by the Terps, they usually play on the UHF stations here. Also, it’s north but not too far north, IYKWIM ) and academically ( though not on par with a Duke, academic standards aren’t much different than Maryland), and that’s my alma mater, Towson University. Sadly, the athletic facilities are nowhere near what the ACC would require. It would require a commitment from the state to jump the football program from the top end of 1-AA to 1-A, plus a dedicated basketball fieldhouse ( The multi-purpose Towson Center is about as suited for ACC play as a Kia is for the Daytona 500 ) and at least trippling and probobly quadrupling the seating capacity at Johnny Unitas Stadium for football ( It was pulling hen’s teeth to get money to renovate it to it’s present size of 12,000. Wake has the smallest ACC stadium at 31,000 with Duke at 33K. All the others are in the 50K or more seating range ). _sigh_ Towson in the ACC. A man can dream, can’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/30 "2003-07-01T21:39:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*UCF lost to Syracuse, Penn State and Marshall last year by a _combined_ 11 points. The only teams in the ACC clearly superior to UCF in football right now and over the next few years would be FSU, and the new guys Miami and VT. USF isn’t far behind. > > \*\* Forgot to mention: As much as I may hate the Twerpies, to be fair, Maryland has definitely raised it’s game so as to be on par with VT, and only a smidgeon below Florida State and Miami. Just FTR. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/31 "2003-07-01T22:06:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*I do enjoy the remarks about “academic standards” at some of the schools mentioned. Just window-dressing, we all agree, right? \*\* Not necessarily. Duke, Wake Forest and UVa are all very serious academic schools, and I’d agree with ESPN here: > [@](#): > > According to NCAA academic reports, Louisville’s average general-student graduation rates over its most recent four classes is 10 percent in four years and 31 percent in six years. > > Simply put, the urban commuter school’s academic mission has nothing in common with the missions at Duke, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, North Carolina and Virginia. > > Now, it could be argued that Florida State was hardly a Harvard-level addition to the ACC, and that Miami and Virginia Tech were lesser academic institutions than the spurned twosome of Boston College and Syracuse. It’s true that academics is not driving the ACC expansion bus, but at some point presidents at the league’s ivy-walled institutions will put on the brakes. > > Louisville is that point. [http://msn.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/forde\_pat/1574888.html](http://msn.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/forde_pat/1574888.html) My guess is that both the ACC and Big 10(+1) get championship games with only 11 teams. On preview: Yeah, Maryland is good right now. But whether they really are a program on the rise or just enjoying a good spell is another question. UCF is clearly the former: less than ten years in 1-A, they’re a serious bowl hopeful this year, they are the only university in a major (and growing) media market, the school itself is adding several thousand students every year, and football is a big part of the long-term plan for the school. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were better than the terps in five years. In fairness, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/32 "2003-07-01T22:54:45Z")
Well when ya get it all figured out, let us Pac-10 fans know what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/33 "2003-07-02T13:28:53Z")
So, tell us then, when does the Pac-10 make a move on San Diego State and UNLV? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/34 "2003-07-02T13:52:08Z")
Has the ACC sent a team of supplicants to South Bend yet? Rumor has it that the last spot was held for ND, should they deign to consider it. They are awaiting smoke signals from the Vatican. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/35 "2003-07-02T13:56:08Z")
Duh. I’m a wee bit behind. :o Why hold the spot for ND if there isn’t a snowball’s chance they’ll take it? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/36 "2003-07-02T14:15:11Z")
The Atlanta Journal reports today that the ACC may seek an SEC team, either Florida, South Carolina, or Kentucky, to complete its roster. Apparently, the SEC foolishly has no buyout clause, and its teams are free to roam. [Article here.](http://www.ajc.com/gatech/content/sports/gatech/0703/02acc.html) A move by an SEC team could start a huge ripple effect, as cconferences raid one another to fill gaps. How about this scenario: South Carolina returns to the ACC (where it was originally a member), making a natural rival for Clemson. The SEC picks up Louisville, as a natural rival for Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/37 "2003-07-02T14:27:47Z")
Wow! You’ve got to be kidding me. Broyles likes to stir the ashes, I see. Florida is a perfect fit for the ACC, as of Miami’s jump. That would screw everything up. That would start musical conference realignment among the majors. The SC scenario does make sense. I like your realignment better than mine. My hypothetical ACC would be too tough. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/38 "2003-07-02T15:27:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Forgot to mention: > > As much as I may hate the Twerpies, to be fair, Maryland has definitely raised it’s game so as to be on par with VT, and only a smidgeon below Florida State and Miami. Just FTR. \*\* Hey hey, let’s not forget my beloved NC State Wolfpack, the highest ranked ACC team at the end of last year, and the only one that has been able to beat FSU on any sort of consistent basis (3 times in the last 5 years). There was some [speculation](http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/2663794p-2470101c.html) in the N&O as well that Kentucky should be the 12th team for the ACC. While I tend to disagree with anything that would prevent the ACC from being the _Atlantic Coast_ Conference, I agree with their contention that, while the ACC has boned up in football now, basketball is in danger of slipping by the wayside. Adding the Wildcats, given the current lineup of the ACC, would give the ACC multiple perennial contenders for both basketball and football national championships. Be still, my beating heart. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/39 "2003-07-02T15:47:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tigers2B1 \* > \*\ ***Duke** - > > Notre Dame isn’t going to join a conference in football as long as they have their billion dollar TV contract. And why should they? On top of the money - Notre Dame’s national mystic might be harmed by finishing 3rd or 4th in a conference once too many times. Why do that when they can beat the hell out of Army or Navy on TV - AND have a BCS spot reserved. I don’t see where they gain. \*\* No, I agree with you entirely…that’s why I hedged on it. But there’s been some rumblings about a mini-playoff system that would only involve conference champions, after the BCS contract runs out. ND wouldn’t want to be left out in that system, and the Big Ten might start making sense. (Of course, there could be more money in, as you say, whomping Army and Navy on national TV. Sad, but that’s I-A athletics for you.) ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450/40 "2003-07-02T15:51:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*So, tell us then, when does the Pac-10 make a move on San Diego State and UNLV? \*\* [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com) half-jokingly suggested Utah and BYU for the Pac-10. Unlikely, but far more logical than adding the shambling mess that is UNLV athletics. (Their _women’s tennis team_ is under NCAA investigation right now.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acc-poaching-of-the-big-east-dirty-pool-in-the-ncaa/185450.md?page=3)