# Accelerated natural selection as a result of war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 20, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145 "2019-12-20T16:14:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/21 "2019-12-21T21:07:58Z")
How would war change a group of people? Immune systems get stronger to deal with infections from injuries? I believe our skulls got thicker due to human on human violence. But that took a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/22 "2019-12-21T23:21:22Z")
The OP is giving examples of moths and birds. Doesn’t sound like human evolution is the focus of the inquiry. Moth and bird life cycles may be short enough to demonstrate a change, while human life spans are too long. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/23 "2019-12-22T03:49:19Z")
I’ve heard that the Korean Demilitarized Zone has produced an ecology with no creature large enough to set off a land mine. Don’t know if it’s become part of the genetic code of the animals. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/24 "2019-12-22T04:54:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … I believe our skulls got thicker due to human on human violence. But that took a long time. Assuming you are not just using the analogy ‘thicker skulls’ = stupider humans, then demonstrably not true. Also the selective pressure would only be relevant when humans sought to only kill each other by clunking each others’ heads. Sadly most humans know many more ways of being fatally violent to each other. The only examples I can think of that might slightly fit the OP are the massive new world depopulation events when Europeans arrived in the Americas and Australia, largely disease-produced losses of indigenous populations leading to cultural collapse. Particularly a lot of land management practices, including land clearing and vegetation thinning that would have caused direct pressure on ecosystems, and perhaps as a secondary influence on specific species suddenly stopped. You see large areas of these lands reverting to nature, which may perhaps reflect an expansion of the genetic diversity of populations of plants and animals that had been kept in check or been selectively targeted. Yes, a long shot. Its violence but not man-on-man action as much as disease and social collapse, and I’ve no specific species to single out. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/25 "2019-12-22T15:22:07Z")
> **[Humans may have developed strong features to 'better protect' face](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2652374/amp/How-fights-gave-thicker-skulls-Humans-developed-strong-features-better-protect-face-punched.html)** > > As apes evolved into humans, their faces took on fighting features such as thicker jaws and foreheads, claim researchers from the University of Utah. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/26 "2019-12-22T18:02:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [Humans may have developed thicker jaws and foreheads to 'better protect' face](http://Www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2652374/amp/How-fights-gave-thicker-skulls-Humans-developed-strong-features-better-protect-face-punched.html) Um … you do realize that the Daily Mail is kind of an anti-cite, don’t you? In American terms, it’s much like citing the Weekly World News. Now you have to give 6 legitimate cites to undo the Daily Mail cite. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/27 "2019-12-22T18:06:24Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Um … you do realize that the Daily Mail is kind of an anti-cite, don’t you? In American terms, it’s much like citing the Weekly World News. Now you have to give 6 legitimate cites to undo the Daily Mail cite. It’s a lot of work to read an article but next time it’ll help your credibility to do so. Here is an article talking about the same thing. Hopefully you’ll read that before commenting but I won’t hold my breath. > **[Facing a Violent Past - UNews Archive](https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news_releases/facing-a-violent-past/)** > > What contributed to the evolution of faces in the ape-like ancestors of humans? The prehistoric version of a bar fight—over women, resources and other slug-worthy disagreements, new research from the University of Utah scheduled for publication in... ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/28 "2019-12-22T19:05:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Have there been any observable effects in the Zone Rouge in France? There are areas where only few types of plants grow, because of the high concentration of heavy metals in the soil. But are there any observable changes in plants or animals over the past century? > > [Zone rouge - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_Rouge) I’ll be damned. I had no idea of the ongoing fallout of WWI. There are areas still sterilized by arsenic! ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/29 "2019-12-22T19:12:53Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/30 "2019-12-22T19:30:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Here is an article talking about the same thing. Hopefully you’ll read that before commenting but I won’t hold my breath. > > [https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news\_releases/facing-a-violent-past/](https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news_releases/facing-a-violent-past/) Sounds like a possibility, but most likely they’ll need a lot more work before it’s generally accepted. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/31 "2019-12-22T19:31:08Z")
Civil wars are an important influence on the killing of elephants for ivory, and killing elephants for ivory is exerting an evolutionary pressure towards smaller tusks (at least according to this article): [Nat Geo: Under poaching pressure, elephants are evolving to lose their tusks](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/11/wildlife-watch-news-tuskless-elephants-behavior-change/) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/32 "2019-12-22T19:49:02Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I’ll be damned. I had no idea of the ongoing fallout of WWI. There are areas still sterilized by arsenic! Read the related article about the Iron Harvest. Every year, farmers in Flanders and north-eastern France bring up unexploded munitions when they’re ploughing the fields. They just set them by the side of the road for the De-mining service to come pick them up. :eek: They seem pretty casual about it, and occasionally a farmer is killed or injured by ploughing the fields. > **[Iron harvest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_harvest)** > > The iron harvest (French: récolte de fer) is the annual collection of unexploded ordnance, barbed wire, shrapnel, bullets and congruent trench supports collected by Belgian and French farmers after ploughing their fields. The harvest generally consists of material from the First World War, which is still found in large quantities across the former Western Front. > During World War I, an estimated one tonne of explosives was fired for every square metre of territory on the Western front. As many a... One article I read indicated that farmers sometimes turn up human remains. They’ll stop to examine them, and if they can tell if the soldier was Allied, they’ll call the authorities. If they can tell the soldier was German, they may just plough him back under. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/33 "2019-12-23T00:27:07Z")
Nuclear reactor accident rather than war, but there’s been [some study on evolutionary consequences of the Chernobyl disaster for local wildlife](https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_happened_to_various_animal_survivors_if_any_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki_after_atomic_bombing). > [@](#): > > Chernobyl’s unprecedented disaster has accidentally created an ecological laboratory where scientists can see the real-world effects of radiation exposure. For this study, researchers took blood and feather samples from 152 birds from 16 different species at eight sites around the Chernobyl exclusion zone — something that could never be replicated in a confined laboratory. > > What the researchers discovered can prove to be key in understanding the effects of radiation exposure on living organisms. For instance, they found that birds with more melanin in their feathers were in poorer health. The production of pheomelanin, a type of melanin, was using up all the antioxidants in the birds’ bodies, which should have been used to fight ionizing radiation. > > While the two species that produce a lot of pink pigment in their feathers — the great tit (Parus major) and the barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) — failed to adapt well to their surroundings, the other 14 species did not waste their antioxidants on melanin and evolved to absorb and fight radiation in a more effective way. > > In the 28 years that have passed, birds have learned to not only survive, but to thrive on the radioactive land. Though long-term radiation exposureusually damages cells with free radicals, researchers have found that birds in the Chernobyl exclusion zone were in much better condition than expected. > > [Something Surprising Happened to the Animals Around Chernobyl 28 Years After the Disaster](https://mic.com/articles/88483/something-surprising-happened-to-the-animals-around-chernobyl-28-years-after-the-disaster#.fF1zL5Fi4) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/34 "2019-12-23T02:28:15Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I’ve heard that the Korean Demilitarized Zone has produced an ecology with no creature large enough to set off a land mine. Don’t know if it’s become part of the genetic code of the animals. [The Korean DMZ has proven to be a boon for wildlife](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/20/710054899/in-korean-dmz-wildlife-thrives-some-conservationists-worry-peace-could-disrupt-i), as it’s a huge chunk of undeveloped land on a very crowded peninsula. I don’t know if there have been evolutionary changes among the wildlife, though. [Pretty much the same thing is happening in the area around Chernobyl.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/04/060418-chernobyl-wildlife-thirty-year-anniversary-science/) The Bikini Atoll is also doing pretty well, [except for some mutated sharks.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fish-nuclear-weapons-bombs-sea-stanford-university-us-tests-hiroshima-a7842436.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/35 "2019-12-23T02:34:46Z")
Please tell me that the mutated sharks have developed the power to project laser beams from their heads! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/36 "2019-12-23T05:10:37Z")
The one valid example I can think of might be Vikings. Reading the chronicles of the early Vikings, they seemed to have a number of berserker tendencies. Erik the Red, for example, discovered Greenland because he had to leave Iceland in a hurry after going medieval (appropriate) on someone else’s skull. Many of the stories of those days of Scandinavia, Iceland and Greenland seem to be full of this sort of uncontrolled rage behaviour. Maybe this was a side effect of generations of attacking all over the North Sea coasts. Or, it may just be old folk tales. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/37 "2019-12-23T05:32:30Z")
There’s actually a number of places where, for various reasons (e.g. national security), development has been totally restricted and nature has come back. They’re called [involuntary parks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_park). I don’t think the Zone Rouge qualifies, since it’s so polluted with heavy metals that nature is not really reestablishing itself. The [European Green Belt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Green_Belt) is one of the largest. It’s like the Korean DMZ, only all the way across Europe. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/38 "2019-12-23T05:44:05Z")
Not due to war, but there are human evolutionary adaptations to environment. wiki: [High-altitude adaptation in humans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans) > [@](#): > > High-altitude adaptation in humans is an instance of evolutionary modification in certain human populations, including those of Tibet in Asia, the Andes of the Americas, and Ethiopia in Africa, who have acquired the ability to survive at extremely high altitudes. This adaptation means irreversible, long-term physiological responses to high-altitude environments, associated with heritable behavioural and genetic changes. > > While the rest of the human population would suffer serious health consequences, the indigenous inhabitants of these regions thrive well in the highest parts of the world. These people have undergone extensive physiological and genetic changes, particularly in the regulatory systems of oxygen respiration and blood circulation, when compared to the general lowland population.[1][2] > > This special adaptation is now recognised as an example of natural selection in action.[3] The adaptation account of the Tibetans has become the fastest case of human evolution in the scientific record, as it is estimated to have occurred in less than 3,000 years.[4][5][6] ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/39 "2019-12-23T05:52:13Z")
Missed edit window: Since this is the “fastest case of human evolution in the scientific record”, and took nearly 3000 years, you’re not going to find evolutionary adaptations caused by wars in a few generations. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145/40 "2019-12-23T06:01:35Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > . The [European Green Belt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Green_Belt) is one of the largest. It’s like the Korean DMZ, only all the way across Europe. On reading that page on the Euro Green Belt, I noticed this: > [@](#): > > One peculiar occurrence noticed was that in a forested part of this belt on the frontier between Bavaria and Bohemia, 18 years after the border barrier was removed, forest deer still refused to cross the frontier: compare hefting of livestock. This might be something like what the OP is looking for. There may be something similar happening in the Korean DMZ, but we won’t find out until that border is actually demilitarized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accelerated-natural-selection-as-a-result-of-war/845145.md?page=3)