# Acceptance of Homosexuality leads to the Collapse of Civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716 "2012-01-07T09:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/61 "2012-01-08T23:47:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m talking about jealousy, which is the real issue, which causes homosexual oppression. Whose jealousy? Towards whom? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/62 "2012-01-08T23:49:09Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > What makes you think that the survival of the family is in jeopardy? And do you have any real-world examples? I don’t think the survival of the family is in jeopardy at all. Family is what holds us all together despite all the sickness and dysfunction and evil. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/63 "2012-01-08T23:58:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Whose jealousy? Towards whom? Jealousy of one person suspecting infidelity of their spouse if the spouse is hanging out with another person. As I stated above, with the current system where homosexuals are defined as defective, men can hang out with other men without raising suspicion of adultery, and women can hang out with other women without raising suspicion. This also tends to set a pattern of men’s and women’s roles in society which we still see today. But if homosexuality was normal, and again our natural state is casual bisexual, then men hanging out with other men can cause suspicion of adultery, and women hanging out with other women also can cause suspicious of adultery. Jealousy can cause the dissolving of the marriage or a spouse choosing not to associate with anyone that may cause the appearance of adultery leading to isolation. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/64 "2012-01-08T23:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Acceptance of Homosexuality leads to the Collapse of Civilization? It probably isn’t any one thing in particular that does this. It wasn’t homosexuality alone that caused the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/65 "2012-01-09T00:02:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jealousy of one person suspecting infidelity of their spouse if the spouse is hanging out with another person. > > As I stated above, with the current system where homosexuals are defined as defective, men can hang out with other men without raising suspicion of adultery, and women can hang out with other women without raising suspicion. > > This also tends to set a pattern of men’s and women’s roles in society which we still see today. > > But if homosexuality was normal, and again our natural state is casual bisexual, then men hanging out with other men can cause suspicion of adultery, and women hanging out with other women also can cause suspicious of adultery. > > Jealousy can cause the dissolving of the marriage or a spouse choosing not to associate with anyone that may cause the appearance of adultery leading to isolation. I’m not sure our natural state is “casual bisexual.” That implies that full-on heterosexuals are actually outside the norm. I think full-on heterosexuality is the norm from which other sexualities deviate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/66 "2012-01-09T00:16:04Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I’m not sure our natural state is “casual bisexual.” That implies that full-on heterosexuals are actually outside the norm. I think full-on heterosexuality is the norm from which other sexualities deviate. I’m not sure either, but also not sure monogamy is our natural state, which would make marriage a unnatural ‘forced’ state. Forced unnatural states need something to keep things from reverting back to the natural state. Marriage as we know it is very enforced by state and religious practices. It is a jump however that since marriage is not a natural state that our natural state is casual bisexual. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/67 "2012-01-09T00:23:13Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > You seem pretty certain of that. What makes you so certain that the survival of the family is immaterial to the survival of civilization? I still can’t help but think you are _grossly underestimating_ the importance of family. I’m certain of it because I can tell you what happened to every extinct civilization whose cause-of-death is known. And none ever fell from a decline in family values. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/68 "2012-01-09T01:17:21Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > It probably isn’t any one thing in particular that does this. > > It wasn’t homosexuality alone that caused the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah. It wasn’t **anything** we know about that caused the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, assuming they ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/69 "2012-01-09T01:27:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The starting premise is we are as a default a sexual expressive being, basically causal bisexual, and only learn how to restrict that from society. With that condition does that change your acceptance? Huh? The OP was > [@dorsk188](#): > > When I was in college, a friend of mine alluded to the idea that “the Romans accepted homosexuality and it resulted in the Empire’s collapse”. I quickly and derisively told her that the Roman Empire actually collapsed after making Christianity the compulsory faith of the state. That certainly shut her up, and it’s mostly true, but I was just using her flawed logic to shut her down. Ever since then I’ve wondered where her idea came from. > > I’ve done some limited research and found the story of homosexual mores in Rome is fairly complicated, but it seems that the culture became more puritanical as it was in decline. Is there anything that supports her idea that gayer empires will prematurely fall while straight ones last longer? Or is it, as I suspect, a just-so impromptu argument developed by fundamental Christians to support their basic bigotry? If the latter, any idea where such a wrong idea originated? Where are you seeing a starting premise that people are causally bisexual? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/70 "2012-01-09T01:32:06Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > You’re not actually arguing choice in sexuality, are you? Or are you talking about choosing to participate in homosexual behaviour? Quite a distinction. No point in getting sidetracked. My point was that even in a society in which heterosexuality and homosexuality were viewed as equal, you’d still have a heterosexual majority. So any argument which is based on the argument that homosexuality needs to be repressed in order to prevent a predominantly homosexual society is flawed on that basis alone. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/71 "2012-01-09T01:58:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Huh? The OP wasWhere are you seeing a starting premise that people are causally bisexual? It was the premise that IF people are naturally (by nature) casual bisexual, and society is built around a forced (learned) artificial state of monogamous heterosexuality that may require the stigmatizing of homosexuality to sustain society (preserve the learned behavior). Any such society, including Roman, would face significant challenges in trying to accept homosexuality to the point that the society may collapse. The question remains what is human’s natural sexual condition. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/72 "2012-01-09T03:15:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The question remains what is human’s natural sexual condition. Horny. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/73 "2012-01-09T21:58:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jealousy of one person suspecting infidelity of their spouse if the spouse is hanging out with another person. > > As I stated above, with the current system where homosexuals are defined as defective, men can hang out with other men without raising suspicion of adultery, and women can hang out with other women without raising suspicion. > > This also tends to set a pattern of men’s and women’s roles in society which we still see today. > > But if homosexuality was normal, and again our natural state is casual bisexual, then men hanging out with other men can cause suspicion of adultery, and women hanging out with other women also can cause suspicious of adultery. > > Jealousy can cause the dissolving of the marriage or a spouse choosing not to associate with anyone that may cause the appearance of adultery leading to isolation. But in older cultures (and probably some to this day), same-sex sexual activity for married persons was not considered adultery. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/74 "2012-01-09T22:37:34Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > But in older cultures (and probably some to this day), same-sex sexual activity for married persons was not considered adultery. In older cultures (and probably some to this day), nothing a **husband** did was considered adultery, unless he messed around with another man’s wife; but he had no obligation whatsoever of sexual fidelity to his own. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/75 "2012-01-09T23:47:25Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > But in older cultures (and probably some to this day), same-sex sexual activity for married persons was not considered adultery. I was not aware of this. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/76 "2012-01-10T00:01:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > We all need friends, but monogamy + jealousy lead to isolation. Well, then, the sicko state called “jealousy” must be recognized as as especially destructive form of paranoid psychosis and cast out of society. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/77 "2012-01-10T01:06:28Z")
Gibbon was wrong. Homosexuality and /or the advent of Christainiaty had nothing to do with the decline of Rome. What caused the decline was: -the descent into serfdom of the roman citizenry (as small farmers were displaced by big estates) -the pressure of the barbarians, goths, germans, who were pressing into the borders of the empire -the inability to fund the army (basically, the rich evaded taxation) -the hyperinflation caused by the debasement of the currency The idea that the romans were enfeebled by riotous living, sexual excess, christian piety, etc. is rejected by modern historians. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/78 "2012-01-10T01:09:46Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Gibbon was wrong. > Homosexuality and /or the advent of Christainiaty had nothing to do with the decline of Rome. > What caused the decline was: > -the descent into serfdom of the roman citizenry (as small farmers were displaced by big estates) > -the pressure of the barbarians, goths, germans, who were pressing into the borders of the empire > -the inability to fund the army (basically, the rich evaded taxation) > -the hyperinflation caused by the debasement of the currency > The idea that the romans were enfeebled by riotous living, sexual excess, christian piety, etc. is rejected by modern historians. So how did the Eastern Empire manage to survive all that for a thousand years after the Western fell? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/79 "2012-01-10T01:55:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So how did the Eastern Empire manage to survive all that for a thousand years after the Western fell? A lot of it had to do with the fact that the Eastern Empire had more money and could pay of the barbarians to attack the Western Empire instead. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/80 "2012-01-10T02:13:09Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > A lot of it had to do with the fact that the Eastern Empire had more money and could pay of the barbarians to attack the Western Empire instead. I suppose it might also have had to do with the East having been highly civilized long **before** the Romans conquered it. Roman civilization in the West was rather thin on the ground, outside Italy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716.md?page=5)