# Acceptance of Homosexuality leads to the Collapse of Civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716 "2012-01-07T09:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/81 "2012-01-10T03:01:16Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I don’t think the survival of the family is in jeopardy at all. Family is what holds us all together despite all the sickness and dysfunction and evil. Let’s try this one more time. I don’t think anyone’s questioning that a collapse of the family would cause problems for a society. The question is, has this ever, in the history of civilization, actually happened? It seems that you think it has; we’d really like to know when & where, and what evidence you have of it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/82 "2012-01-10T03:26:03Z")
> [@SCSimmons](#): > > Let’s try this one more time. I don’t think anyone’s questioning that a collapse of the family would cause problems for a society. The question is, has this ever, in the history of civilization, actually happened? Well, Romans of Augustus’ time **thought** the family was collapsing, in that marriage seemed to be increasingly unpopular (why buy the cow when you can buy a nice little slave-girl?); that’s why Augustus pased laws punishing bachelors and rewarding married men. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/83 "2012-01-10T08:41:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So how did the Eastern Empire manage to survive all that for a thousand years after the Western fell? It didn’t. Byzantine power as a meaningful world-spanning “empire” was thoroughly ended by the rise of Islam. A rump state ruling over an ever-decreasing portion of Turkey and Greece was the successor to the Eastern Roman Empire but was by no means the survival of anything particularly Roman or Imperial, being a Greek-speaking, culturally Christian, and rather small state. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/84 "2012-01-10T11:27:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jealousy of one person suspecting infidelity of their spouse if the spouse is hanging out with another person. The principle problem with adultery (and the source of jealousy) is paternity. As you said, that’s why the genders are traditionally separated socially. But because paternity cannot be an issue if the men-folk are porking during a hunting trip and the lady-folk are diddling in the kitchen, it shouldn’t threaten any of their marriages. (Prioritization of resources would play a role, as well, but that’s an issue anyway with platonic friendships.) It seems to me that a man being jealous of his wife’s lesbian lovers (or genderflip that whole premise) is pretty much a misfiring of evolutionary instincts. It would make as much sense as being jealous of of your wife’s vibrator or your husband’s right hand. It certainly does happen, don’t get me wrong. It seems sort of silly unless there is a material loss of affection due to gay infidelity. > [@Theophane](#): > > What do you mean by “stigmatized?” I don’t understand how the viability of hetero marriage is in any way connected to homosexuality, stigmatized or otherwise. If I have an ignorant view, please correct me. This is the first post of yours that’s ever made any sense, why is **this** the time you choose to qualify it? Your other posts in this thread are filled with fact-free assertions dripping with ignorance like: > [@Theophane](#): > > If the (nuclear) family goes, civilization goes. As others have said: the nuclear family is essentially a product of the industrial revolution, and civilization has marched on before and since. In reality, the nuke family, extended family, the clan, the community, the military regiment, the church, and the individual are all institutions that have been more or less fundamental to various civilizations and each of them have trade-offs when they are the primary focus. Individualism tends to lead to greater innovation than clan-based societies, but they are also more disjointed and have difficulty dealing with poverty. Nuke families are sort of a middle-ground and roughly speaking a good foundation (though it still lacks the safety net inherent to a community). But you’re missing [a crucial fact](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgXO-MCU3S8&feature=related): **A married / committed gay couple and their kids are effectively a nuclear family.** So, all your arguments, ahistorical and inaccurate as they are, still don’t address the central premise of the theory, anyway. _One more thing_, you responded to the subject line of this thread twice, making two different points, similar to the way people pipe in when something’s “too long ; didn’t read” as well as engage in the actual topic. This leads me to the conclusion that your account is being used by multiple people. Is that so? If it is (I don’t think there’s a rule against it), you should at least tell us so we don’t try to have a direct discussion with you, expecting you to be consistent and responsive. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/85 "2012-01-10T11:39:47Z")
**Theophane** , rereading your posts, I think I may have put words in your mouth about whether gay-headed families are sufficiently nuclear or socially healthy. If I misrepresent you, please set me straight. > [@Theophane](#): > > Is the part where SD wolf-packs me again? In any case, get off the damn cross. No one’s making you post here nor read the reactions what you say. You’re free to criticize anyone else’s opinion, just as they are to criticize yours. Grow some calluses. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/86 "2012-01-10T14:07:18Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Are you for real or just trolling for lulz? Do not accuse other posters of trolling except in The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/87 "2012-01-10T15:31:04Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I strongly disagree. > > Erosion of the family unit is what kills a civilization, since [the family](http://www.edwardgoldsmith.org/30/the-family-basis-of-social-structure/) is the building-block of society. As I understand it, many Native American tribes did just fine without the concept, working more as tight-knit communities than families, where children were raised by the tribe as a whole. Of course, their civilization kinda collapsed, but you can’t really blame poxy blankets and systematic ethnic cleansing by the next civilization over on the lack of nuclear families. For that matter, the Ottomans seemed to be doing mighty fine with their harems and such. Built an empire and everything. Their imperial successions were more fratricidal than a nest of snakes obviously, but that only builds scheming paranoid emperors. Those last. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/88 "2012-01-10T15:50:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As I understand it, many Native American tribes did just fine without the concept, working more as tight-knit communities than families, where children were raised by the tribe as a whole. > Of course, their civilization kinda collapsed, but you can’t really blame poxy blankets and systematic ethnic cleansing by the next civilization over on the lack of nuclear families. I believe that is more of the ideal in terms of human social structure. The nuclear family structure is more of a product of isolation and property. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/89 "2012-01-10T16:03:27Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I strongly disagree. > > Erosion of the family unit is what kills a civilization, since [the family](http://www.edwardgoldsmith.org/30/the-family-basis-of-social-structure/) is the building-block of society. did anyone actualy read the article? Its not as nutty as one might think. > [@](#): > > We are accustomed to think of the family as consisting of a father, a mother, and some children, with possibly one or two grandparents attached. Instead we should think of it in terms of the functions it fulfils. The family would then be present if the family functions were fulfilled by individuals biologically and culturally adapted to do so. The community as a whole or a specialised institution would not qualify, for a family is a differentiated system at a particular level of organisation. Its functions must be fulfilled by individuals – and specific ones at that. The point is, however, that they need not all be fulfilled by the members of what we regard to be the family. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/90 "2012-01-10T18:20:51Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > did anyone actualy read the article? Its not as nutty as one might think. Is this supposed to be revolutionary? Family is our word for people who care about each other beyond the level of social duty. This is basically the premise of roughly 60% of the sitcoms of the last 40 years. And no one is debating the importance of small groups of people with strong interconnected emotional bonds. Genetic similarities grant a degree of instinctual camaraderie, but it isn’t necessary. So shared gene families are certainly the easiest way to create a support group, but it’s not necessarily the best. Not to mention that they sometimes don’t naturally exist (death and disaffection being common reasons). If conservatives really cared about civilizational health, they would stop going on about the importance of families that don’t exist and start a movement to ensure people have something that fills that support role. Rick Santorum and others go around talking about how families are important. So are legs. But for people that don’t have them, it’s not exactly helping to just remind them of it. Better get on with developing effective prostheses. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/91 "2012-01-10T18:28:06Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > If conservatives really cared about civilizational health, they would stop going on about the importance of families that don’t exist and start a movement to ensure people have something that fills that support role. Rick Santorum and others go around talking about how families are important. So are legs. But for people that don’t have them, it’s not exactly helping to just remind them of it. And it would be equally counterproductive to prevent people who are perfectly willing and able to grow legs from legally doing so! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/92 "2012-01-10T18:39:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So how did the Eastern Empire manage to survive all that for a thousand years after the Western fell? They had a much better border situation. They had a relatively small and defensible border in the Balkans with barbarian groups. Their main border was with the Persian Empire in the east. A war with Persia would be a major event but when relations between Byzantium and Persia were peaceful, the border was quiet - so there were periods when Byzantium could rebuild and re-equip. In the west, there was virtually never any peaceful periods along their long border. The was no single dominant power that was threatening to cross the border but there would always be some group that was doing so. So the western military was constantly under attack and war was an ongoing drain on manpower and resources. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/93 "2012-01-10T18:41:28Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And it would be equally counterproductive to prevent people who are perfectly willing and able to grow legs from legally doing so! Hear, hear! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/94 "2012-01-10T18:43:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It was the premise that IF people are naturally (by nature) casual bisexual, and society is built around a forced (learned) artificial state of monogamous heterosexuality that may require the stigmatizing of homosexuality to sustain society (preserve the learned behavior). > > Any such society, including Roman, would face significant challenges in trying to accept homosexuality to the point that the society may collapse. > > The question remains what is human’s natural sexual condition. Where are you seeing all this in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/95 "2012-01-10T19:06:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They had a much better border situation. They had a relatively small and defensible border in the Balkans with barbarian groups. Their main border was with the Persian Empire in the east. A war with Persia would be a major event but when relations between Byzantium and Persia were peaceful, the border was quiet - so there were periods when Byzantium could rebuild and re-equip. Not to mention that the Persian empire was a pretty good buffer against barbarian invasions as well. It’s easier to deal and negociate with a threatening but mostly settled neighbour than with hordes of displaced (or nomadic) warriors. The fact that Byzantium was filthy stinking rich couldn’t have hurt, either. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/96 "2012-01-13T19:12:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not to mention that the Persian empire was a pretty good buffer against barbarian invasions as well. It’s easier to deal and negociate with a threatening but mostly settled neighbour than with hordes of displaced (or nomadic) warriors. That arrangement broke down in the seventh century, when the Byzantines and the Persians spent an entire generation beating the crap out of each other. Finally, both sides had settled down to a peace of mutual exhaustion… just in time for the Arabs to show up and conquer half of the former empire and all of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/97 "2012-01-13T19:19:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is preposterous. Aside from the fact that “18th century Victorian” is like saying “17th century Star Wars fans,” Well, that, and the Victorian era was 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/98 "2012-01-13T19:31:31Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > Well, that, and the Victorian era was 19th century. That’s what he just said. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/99 "2012-01-13T20:13:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Aside from the fact that “18th century Victorian” is like saying “17th century Star Wars fans,” . . . “The Emperor is not as **forgiving** as I am.” – Darth Wallenstein ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716/100 "2012-01-16T15:19:03Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > That last one was just a joke, but I’m serious about the importance of the traditional family unit. Is the part where SD wolf-packs me again? You never heard of the [Spartans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge), then? They have some reputation for being fierce warriors and extremly gay and still popping out babies for all their wars, and they had communal living for most of their life. > [@](#): > > When a baby boy was born, it was required that he be checked by the Gerousia (a council of leading elder Spartans) from his tribe to see if he was fit and healthy enough to be allowed to live. In the event that the baby did not pass the test, he was left at a place called the apothetai near Mt. Taygetus to die of exposure. At the age of seven, he was enrolled in the agoge under the authority of the paidonómos (παιδονόμος), or “boy-herder”, a magistrate charged with supervising education. This began the first of the three stages of the agoge: the paídes (roughly speaking, ages 7–17), the paidískoi (ages 17–19), and the hēbōntes (20-29); some classical sources indicate that there were further subdivisions by year within these classes.[1] So for the first years of their life, when they had to be breastfeed, learn to walk and talk, they stayed with their mother; and later, when they were married, still lived mostly in the[barracks with their mates](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Education) and not with their family. > [@](#): > > Sparta, is thought to be the first city to practice athletic nudity, and one of the first to formalize pederasty.[68] The Spartans believed that the love of an older, accomplished aristocrat for an adolescent was essential to his formation as a free citizen. The agoge, the education of the ruling class, was thus founded on pederastic relationships required of each citizen.[69] The lover was responsible for the boy’s training. Pederasty and military training were intimately connected in Sparta, as in many other cities. The Spartans, claims Athenaeus[70] sacrificed to Eros before every battle. > > Spartan men remained in the active reserve until age sixty. Men were encouraged to marry at age twenty but could not live with their families until they left their active military service at age thirty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acceptance-of-homosexuality-leads-to-the-collapse-of-civilization/608716.md?page=6)