Accepted For Value

And even if the people at the IRS don’t take advantage of these loopholes, they still have to know they exist, so why haven’t they been closed yet?

No, this doesn’t make any sense. The only way this even begins to make sense is if there are no loopholes and the ‘Sovereign Citizens’ are just completely wrong.

Right. See, suppose there are these secret techniques that if you follow them, you don’t have to pay your taxes. But the government keeps these techniques secret, because they want to keep us enslaved, and if the techniques became widely known the whole fascist system would come crashing down.

But why exactly wouldn’t the fascist bureaucrats at the IRS just ignore the secret rules, and throw you in jail anyway? After all, these rules are secret, so if they don’t follow the rules, who’s going to know? Especially considering that if they just pretend they didn’t see the secret handshake, they get to put you in jail and take your stuff.

What’s the difference between a rule so secret that the government doesn’t follow it, and a rule that doesn’t exist? When you go before the fascist judge, and loudly proclaim that his court has no jurisdiction over you, as proved by secret documents X, Y and Z, and the judge laughs and ignores you, what next? It doesn’t matter whether the judge laughs because he’s ignorant and has never heard of the secret documents even though they’re really true, or because he’s corrupt and knows all about the secret documents but pretends not to, or because he thinks the secret documents thing is a bunch of hooey, he’ll still throw you in jail for not paying your taxes, and there’s nothing you can do about it. The IRS, the courts, the lawyers, the cops and the bureaucrats are all in cahoots, so there’s no way you can win just because you know the truth.

And if the people who know how to do this don’t talk about it, why are you talking about it? Which is it?

Well, for your first question, I used to be very anti-conspiracy, but I’ve met many people, and have learned so many things that have really made me question our federal government. I think it’s obvious that there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes, and that our federal gvmnt doesn’t work like how we think it does. i.e. Our money is not actually backed by anything! The government and central banks all lead to the same money trail. The number one thing I’ve learned since becoming a RE investor is that it really doesn’t come down to right/wrong, or what the laws are, it comes down to the interpretation of the law, and how great of a lawyer you have.

As far as sovereign citizens, I know for a fact that you can choose sovereign status for yourself, but there are MANY reasons why everybody doesn’t do it. You would not be able to use the federal government to protect yourself in a legal matter, or have the use of things that are created through tax dollars, such as our roads. I learned in business, people will not do business with you, because they will not have any recourse against you since you are not a citizen. And if you think about it, there’s probably many things you can’t do…However, my trusted source says that they drive on the roads anyway.

I am not fully understanding of how the A4V process is related to being a sovereign citizen, but I learned that they need to remain two different things. If you are going to take advantage of the uniform commercial code remedies to receive something A4V, you have to be a citizen to be able to use your statutory rights.

I don’t know where you find this information, but it seems just like the RE world, you have to know people who know how to make things happen. I’ve met and had small amounts of time with these people just through going to wealth.RE success events…but so far, I don’t have the privilege of being able to hang out with them. I used to think A4V was pure conspiracy but it is an actual process for remedies for corporations to use. If you google ucc filing with your state, you’ll find a lot of information, in fact you may even find all of the businesses around where you live that have filed UCC filings. A4V is a process that the a person can use to their advantage. I don’t doubt that there is risk required when eliminating your debts, or doing anything in business for that matter, but it exists.

What made me all too curious was when my business partner asked our lawyer about being able to acquire assets through the A4V process, or to to eliminate debt. Of course I laughed, and then he responded look it up, I can help you with that. Of course, his time is not free, Sooo here I am. I have also met people who are able to acquire things for “free” by suing banks…well, at least that’s what they say…

The reason you wouldn’t be able to do any of those things is because you’d be a fugitive and possibly holed up in a compound of some sort with like-minded people.

[quote=“alifeworthliving, post:23, topic:525959”]

The number one thing I’ve learned since becoming a RE investor is that it really doesn’t come down to right/wrong, or what the laws are, it comes down to the interpretation of the law, and how great of a lawyer you have./QUOTE]Yeah, though I’d say it comes down to what the judge says the law is. And why would a judge agree with this secret get-out-of-jail free card, when there’s zero public legal justification.

You know, that bit I underlined is I think the smartest thing you’ve said so far… talk is cheap, as they say.

I think you should get your information correct before sounding like a blog troll.

I didn’t say anything about fascist bureaucrats,secret handshakes or techniques or anything like that. I’m saying that its’ public knowledge people who are sovereign citizens. I cannot find a source at the moment, but if I do again I can certainly post it on here. I have no idea how you do it legally, or why you would want to. All I know is my lawyer had told me there are 39 in my state, and when I had looked it up in the past, there were 44 listed. And quite honestly, I really couldn’t care who believes me or not on those facts.

When I said the people who know this aren’t talking about it, I’m talking about using Accepted for Value process to eliminate debt, as in using the Uniform Commercial Code remedies for a corporation. I’m not talking about being a sovereign citizen.

I’m talking about it because I’d like to get more information. It’s obviously not readily available information.

[quote=“Quercus, post:25, topic:525959”]

The goal is not to sound intelligent. It’s to share information through experience. If the goal on here was to sound intelligent, I’d have no reason to be here in the first place as I have no idea who any of you people are, or how much money you actually make, or what quality of life you actually live.

[quote=“Quercus, post:25, topic:525959”]

You can laugh at the experiences that I share, but in the end, you’ll be a law abiding citizen, paying up the butt in taxes, thinking that you’re paying your apr percentage in loans, but your really paying for that car loan 4x’s over. Paying for your house until your…dead maybe. And then finding yourself with no money for social security at 65. Whereas I personally know an investor that had just acquired a half a million dollar home fooor free. Thats right, except for legal fees that is. Probably not near what you pay, or what you will be paying for your home…

Yeah, and every single anti-Semite and anti-Muslim and, well, racist in general didn’t used to be that way, but they were shoved into the position by a series of unfortunate events that were all connected to the group they hate. I’m not surprised to see it used here.

You really have no idea how the economy works. Money is backed by the same thing it’s always been backed by: The idea that it will be worth something in the future. Gold mostly works that way, diamonds definitely work that way, and all the money in every economy on the planet works that way.

Only if you go out on a ship in the middle of the ocean or, as some have already said, move to somewhere on land where there is no effective governmental authority and fight warlords to establish yourself as an independent power.

See? They’re not sovereign then, by your own logic.

It’s related because it’s crazy in the same way. It’s another example of the “Law as Magic Words” fallacy, the idea that if you perform certain secret actions you can trick the legal system into doing something that benefits you.

Like all those people writing letters from prison.

He can, but not in the way you think. Debt can be discharged through mutual consent, which might involve some real ‘accepted for value’ agreement as opposed to the magical nonsense of claiming that if you write ‘Accepted For Value’ on a check and they cash it, the debt is gone.

Right. I’ll believe that one when I see it, or very good evidence of it.


Your “lawyer” may know 40 people who claim to be soveriegn citizens. So?

Claiming to be a soveriegn citizen means nothing. If you live in the United States you are still subject to the laws of the United States whether you are a citizen or not. If you live within the boundaries of the United States you still have to pay taxes and obey the laws whether you’re an American or a Canadian or a Martian. People aren’t allowed to attack Candadians on the streets. Canadians can be arrested. The notion that only citizens of the United States are subject to the laws of the United States is nonsense. Everyone within the boundaries of the United States is subject to the laws of the United States, except for a few diplomatic personnel.

It is possible to renounce your American Citizenship, but you can’t stay in the United States afterward. In fact, you can generally only renounce your citizenship if you’re allready overseas, because only American citizens have the right to live in America, other people have to have permission to do so. So if you’re not a citizen of the United States and you don’t have a green card, you’ll get deported. Except if you’re stateless, there’s nowhere to deport you to. So that’s why you can’t just walk into your local courthouse and renounce your American citizenship.

Or slightly more precisely, you CAN, it’s just that nobody will pay any attention to you if you do. You can get up and swear on a stack of Bibles and sign any number of declarations, but you’re just going to be treated like a kook who claims he’s Napoleon. That is, you’ll be ignored, until you break the laws of the United States or don’t pay your taxes. Then the IRS and the cops will come after you.

And of course our money isn’t backed by anything except the government. This is called fiat money, and it’s not exactly a secret that we don’t use gold coins or cacao beans or pieces of paper that the government promises to exchange for gold or silver. No, we use fiat money that is intrinsically worth nothing, it’s only value is that other people will accept it in exchange for goods and services, and the only reason they do that is that they know that still other people will accept that money in exchange for goods and services. If people stopped accepting fiat money in exchange for goods and services then that money would be worthless.

Anyway, fiat money is much more honest that “gold standard” money. Back when we were on the gold standard, all that meant is that the government utterly controlled the market for gold. It was illegal to own gold, for crying out loud. And the first thing that happened whenever the government got in trouble due to a war or a depression was that they’d “suspend” gold payments. But nowadays, you can walk into any coin shop and exchange your worthless fiat dollars for real gold. Not a piece of paper with some words written on it that say you’re entitled to such-and-such amount of gold, but actual gold. And you can take that gold and exhange it for goods and services, only accept gold from people that you provide goods and services for.

As for “Accepted for Value”, you can sometimes discharge debts from a debt collector for a fraction of the original debt. But you can’t do this by a magic formula, you do this by negotiation with the debt collector. They say you owe an amount, you offer to pay a smaller amount, and they either accept or not. Writting magic words on a check doesn’t discharge the debt, an agreement with your creditor discharges the debt. And cashing a check with magic words on it doesn’t constitute agreement on the part of the creditor that the full debt is indeed discharged.

Just one correction. It was perfectly legal to own (in the US) any type of gold up until May 1, 1933 when Executive Order 6102made it illegal to own monetary gold. This included gold coins, gold certificates, and gold bullion. Specifically exempt was gold “customari[ly] use[d] in industry, profession or art.” This covered jewlery, gold teeth, etc. Anybody could keep up to $100 in gold coins and also exempt were “gold coins having recognized special value to collectors…” That is, collectors could keep their collections.

In 1934 contracts with gold clauses unenforceable. (I actually am currently 1/24 owner of a long term lease with such a clause and we’re still being paid a paltry quarterly lease payment based on gold at $20.67 an ounce.)

The “paid in full” thing isn’t as ridiculous as some make it out to be. There is such a thing called “accord and satisfaction” where a party can take a partial payment of full satisfaction of a debt.

Generally, there has to be some, at least half-assed legitimate dispute about the overall debt and if you send a check with the clear intent to make the payment one of full satisfaction of a debt, and further send it to someone who will actually read it (not to an automated payment system) then you have a legitimate “accord and satisfaction” defense to a contract claim.

The urban legend is incorrect to a certain point. I can’t pay off my $200k home mortgage by writing a $2 check and putting “paid in full” in the memo line.

If I write a letter to the bank’s customer service department with an enclosed $185k check stating that I want to pay off the mortgage and that by cashing the check they agree that the $185k settles the mortgage, and they cash it? Then the house very well could be mine free and clear.

What if I sent the check with no message, but wrote “paid in full” in the memo line? Meh, maybe. I sure sent a large check and the bank surely should try to see why. But on the other hand, I should have been more clear. Maybe a judge would see it my way.

This may be what the OP is talking about, and it seems like the “paid in full” has become a double urban legend in that it NEVER EVER works, but that’s not the case

I’m not sure where you pulled racist or hate from…except for out of your ass.

I don’t know why you would assume I hate anybody or thing…

I actually grew up in a Muslim family, and have many Jewish friends. By saying “figuring out how the government actually operates”… I mean it inspires me to use my legal rights to their fullest advantage. There are obviously many remedies out there for businesses, and even citizens that average working citizens don’t have a clue about.

Everybody I’ve met in the business world will tell you in different words, there are two kinds of people in this world. Domesticated and undomesticated. You can either pass off everything I say as hogwash and work 4 months out of the year just to pay your taxes (1/3rd of your life), and pay off your house until you die. Or you can find yourself a lawyer who has clients that are not in prison, but living at home very happily with their families, debt free and maybe learn something from them.

When I said “or so they say”…I meant it could have been by A4V means. Not that he didn’t get a house for the cost of lawyer fees, I know this for a fact, and I obviously would not prove it, for his privacy. Like I said, you can either believe me, or not… I couldn’t care less.

1/3 of your working life that is…Still too much money to pay to the government for me.

I already used this once today so it’s fresh in my head. Power of positive thinking!

alifeworthliving: You are spewing nonsense and have not given anyone a reason to take you seriously.

Refused for Fraud Without Dishonor.

Not. I choose not.

Like I said before, if there was a magical way to get stuff without paying for it, then why do rich people pay their bills and their taxes like chumps? Aren’t they in on the secret?

Thing is, it doesn’t make any sense. Why would somebody hand over a house to you, just because you wrote some magic words on a check? All they have to do is not hand over the house, right? And then you go to court, right? Now, does the judge know about the secret magic words? Why isn’t he using them? What’s in it for the Powers-that-be to keep these secret laws and ways of getting out of paying your taxes on the books? Why can’t the Illuminati just secretly change the secret laws so that you really do have to pay your taxes like the other chumps? After all, nobody except you and a few of your smart guy pals know about these secret laws, so if they repealed them, who would notice or care?

There are a lot of grifters in the world, and the guy a profesional grifter loves to meet is a small-timer grifter like you who thinks he’s got an angle.