# According to KY law, the same sex marriage licenses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227 "2015-09-07T03:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/181 "2015-09-07T22:20:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know, it makes way too much sense to be applicable to the county deputy clerks, doesn’t it? It doesn’t seem to be relevant, since the judge determined that refusing to issue marriage licenses was breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/182 "2015-09-07T22:23:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 99% of the time I sign a legal document by hand, my mark is a vague scribble consisting of the cursive for my first and last initial, followed by a series of gestures which could potentially be compared to the letters in my name that follow those initials if one could be bothered to hire a forensic graphologist to examine them. > > I’d love to meet the judge who would invalidate my credit card debt because I didn’t properly form the H in my middle name when signing the contract. Thank you for your brilliant legal analysis. I was unaware that Kentucky’s legal requirements that official documents be signed were dependent upon your credit card signatures. Ignorance fought. > [@Procrustus](#): > > No one cares, and it doesn’t matter. 90% of the time my “signature” is typed as follows: > > s/Procrustus. > > If the country accepts these licenses after the marriage ceremony (and I assume they will), then they are filed and part of the State records. I think the obvious solution is that the current unsigned licenses will be signed by someone in the county. No big whoop. But I think the assumption that Kentucky’s requirement for an official signature can simply be ignored is a risky legal proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/183 "2015-09-07T22:25:47Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > But I think the assumption that Kentucky’s requirement for an official signature can simply be ignored is a risky legal proposition. Risky how? It’s not going to make a married couple “unmarried,” is it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/184 "2015-09-07T22:26:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > or deputies. … only under the direction of the county clerk. > [@](#): > > You’d certainly like to add in some additional claim about how if the deputies aren’t acting in accordance with illegal directives from their boss, their actions aren’t binding. But your only citation for this is your gut. \*\*tomndebb \*\*provided the [citation](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179) ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/185 "2015-09-07T22:29:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know, it makes way too much sense to be applicable to the county deputy clerks, doesn’t it? And btw, yes, Kim Davis is a Circuit Court Clerk AFAIU, and that statute does apply to her and her deputies. Well, since a number of your assertions in this thread have been complete nonsense, I’m not taking anything you say at face value. Provide a cite that she is in fact a circuit court clerk, because in most states, court clerks and county clerks are two different offices. Maybe KY has some weird setup, but I’m certainly not going to take your “AFAIU” without backup. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/186 "2015-09-07T22:29:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And since the deputy clerk is currently incarcerated, that duty falls to her deputies, who, as per state law _which you have already been informed of multiple times in this thread_ possess full legal authority to authorize such licenses to be issued. > > Seriously, at this point you’re just sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “LALALALALALALAICANTHEARYOUGAYMARRIAGEISILLEGAL” when confronted with any facts or case law that contradicts what you’ve decided you want to believe is true. And you fail to acknowledge that NO deputies have signed a license. When confronted with this fact, you resort to a completely irrelevant, though eminently fascinating, anecdotal speculation about your credit card signature. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/187 "2015-09-07T22:30:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … only under the direction of the county clerk. > > \*\*tomndebb \*\*provided the [citation](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179) That statute relates to clerks of court. The trial level courts in Kentucky are called “Circuit Courts,” and this statute refers to Judicial Personnel salaries schedules. Not the same thing as a country clerk, that accepts filings and issues marriage licenses. > [@](#): > > ## 30A.010 Clerk defined > > ## Duties coextensive with Commonwealth > > Subject to > administrative control of Chief Justice. > (1) > For the purpose of KRS 30A.010 to 30A.190, “clerk” means the Circuit Court clerk > serving in his capacity as clerk of both the Circuit Court and the District Court. > (2) > As personnel within the Court of Justice, clerks are state officers whose duties are coextensive with the Commonwealth, and who are subject to the administrative control of the Chief Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/188 "2015-09-07T22:32:02Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Well, since a number of your assertions in this thread have been complete nonsense, I’m not taking anything you say at face value. Provide a cite that she is in fact a circuit court clerk, because in most states, court clerks and county clerks are two different offices. Maybe KY has some weird setup, but I’m certainly not going to take your “AFAIU” without backup. > **[Not Even the Bible Can Protect Kim Davis. Here's Why.](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a37608/kim-davis-kentucky/)** > > You know what happens when you take an oath? I, …, do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of … **County Circuit Court** clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, > **[Find News/Talk 1130 WISN's Wednesday Live On-Air Schedule | News/Talk 1130 WISN](https://newstalk1130.iheart.com/schedule/?pname=www.newstalk1130.com&sc=dnsredirect)** > > Discover Wednesday's shows for News/Talk 1130 WISN in Milwaukee, WI Rowan County **Circuit Court Clerk** Kim Davis is now in jail for contempt of court and being held in contempt by the entire nation for refusing to follow the law and issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. > **[Lesbian couple who sued Kim Davis: 'This is about civil rights, not religious...](https://www.wdrb.com/news/lesbian-couple-who-sued-kim-davis-this-is-about-civil-rights-not-religious-freedom/article_5a747485-cea3-585a-b9c3-86cb91c63dba.html)** > > April Miller and Karen Roberts -- one of four same-sex couples who sued Rowan County Circuit Court Clerk Kim Davis over her refusal to issue marriage licenses-- were the third One of four same-sex couples who sued Rowan County\*\* Circuit Court Clerk\*\* Kim Davis over her refusal to issue marriage licenses were the third couple to receive a marriage license on Friday afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/189 "2015-09-07T22:35:23Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Risky how? It’s not going to make a married couple “unmarried,” is it? Depending. In five years is one half of a couple, after an inheritance, going to argue, “We were never married; there is no marital property to divide.”? I agree it is unlikely that anyone will challenge the validity of the licenses, except one of the parties on a license. If a married woman has a baby, then leaves her wife, is the validity of the marriage license an issue in determining who the parents are? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/190 "2015-09-07T22:41:29Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Depending. In five years is one half of a couple, after an inheritance, going to argue, “We were never married; there is no marital property to divide.”? > > I agree it is unlikely that anyone will challenge the validity of the licenses, except one of the parties on a license. If a married woman has a baby, then leaves her wife, is the validity of the marriage license an issue in determining who the parents are? This isn’t that one episode of I Love Lucy. The marriage contract won’t be invalidated by a technicality. This has been cited many times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/191 "2015-09-07T22:46:47Z")
Wait a second, Lucy and Ricky were a lesbian couple? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/192 "2015-09-07T22:48:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Not Even the Bible Can Protect Kim Davis. Here's Why.](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a37608/kim-davis-kentucky/) > > I, …, do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of … **County Circuit Court** clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, > > [Find News/Talk 1130 WISN's Wednesday Live On-Air Schedule | News/Talk 1130 WISN](http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/the-kentucky-clerk-deserves-to-be-13919871) > > Rowan County **Circuit Court Clerk** Kim Davis is now in jail for contempt of court and being held in contempt by the entire nation for refusing to follow the law and issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. > > [Lesbian couple who sued Kim Davis: 'This is about civil rights, not religious freedom'](http://www.wdrb.com/story/29963125/lesbian-couple-who-sued-kim-davis-this-is-about-civil-rights-not-religious-freedom) > > One of four same-sex couples who sued Rowan County\*\* Circuit Court Clerk\*\* Kim Davis over her refusal to issue marriage licenses were the third couple to receive a marriage license on Friday afternoon. Her title seems “county clerk,” and not “circuit court clerk.” That seems to be a separate office under the purview of the courts. Go to this [page](http://courts.ky.gov/courts/clerks/Pages/default.aspx?county=Rowan). The circuit court clerk for Rowan County appears to be someone named Jim Barker. Over here on the [Rowan County Clerk’s](http://rowancountyclerk.com/%5B/url) page, Davis’ title is given as “Rowan County Clerk” and not “circuit court clerk.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/193 "2015-09-07T22:50:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … only under the direction of the county clerk. > > \*\*tomndebb \*\*provided the [citation](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179) Again, irrelevant, since the judge determined that refusing to issue the licenses violated the law. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/194 "2015-09-07T22:50:29Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This isn’t that one episode of I Love Lucy. The marriage contract won’t be invalidated by a technicality. This has been cited many times. Well of course not, not against the will of BOTH spouses. But if one is able to argue, “We always knew that license was invalid and CHOSE not to get a valid one,” does that argument have ANY legal weight, when coupled with a license that has a county name on the official signature line? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/195 "2015-09-07T22:50:48Z")
> [@](#): > > …Over here on the Rowan County Clerk’s, Davis’ title is given as “Rowan County Clerk” and not “circuit court clerk.” … Clicked the citation there, and got a 404 error! _(Chortle)_ ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/196 "2015-09-07T22:52:01Z")
Here’s the correct link: [http://rowancountyclerk.com/](http://rowancountyclerk.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/197 "2015-09-07T22:56:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … only under the direction of the county clerk. > > \*\*tomndebb \*\*provided the [citation](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179) All you’re doing (assuming any of this is correct) is quibbling over which part of the previous law is now invalid in this case. The Supreme Court has ruled that these couple CAN get married. That is now the supreme law of the land. Any policy, practice, law, oath, or tradition that prevents this is a legal nullity now. If in this case it is the requirement that the forms be signed by a particular person, or by any person whatsoever, then in this case, that requirement is void. There is a principle of judicial minimalism that advises that a court only extend that to other cases where necessary, and that as much of the previous law as possible be preserved intact, but beyond that, a court has very broad discretion when it comes to protecting fundamental rights under the Constitution, especially when statutory law hasn’t had time to catch up with the Supreme Court. Again, these couples CAN get married. They can do so in Rowan County. Any legal theory or argument that leads to a different outcome is invalid. If the only remaining legal theory is absurd, then the law is absurd until such time as the Kentucky state statutes can be changed to comply with the Constitution (as interpreted by the Supreme Court) or else the U.S. Constitution is amended. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/198 "2015-09-07T23:02:35Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I believe that law cited by **Tomndebb** is for court clerks and not county clerks, but I don’t have time to look it up right now. Aye, KRS 30A is about Court Clerks. [http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=37174](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=37174) [ > [@](#): > > 30A.010 Clerk defined – Duties coextensive with Commonwealth – Subject to administrative control of Chief Justice. > (1) For the purpose of KRS 30A.010 to 30A.190, “clerk” means the Circuit Court clerk serving in his capacity as clerk of both the Circuit Court and the District Court. > (2) As personnel within the Court of Justice, clerks are state officers whose duties are coextensive with the Commonwealth, and who are subject to the administrative control of the Chief Justice. ]([http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179)) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/199 "2015-09-07T23:06:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Not Even the Bible Can Protect Kim Davis. Here's Why.](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a37608/kim-davis-kentucky/) > > I, …, do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of … **County Circuit Court** clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, > > [Find News/Talk 1130 WISN's Wednesday Live On-Air Schedule | News/Talk 1130 WISN](http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/the-kentucky-clerk-deserves-to-be-13919871) > > Rowan County **Circuit Court Clerk** Kim Davis is now in jail for contempt of court and being held in contempt by the entire nation for refusing to follow the law and issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. > > [Lesbian couple who sued Kim Davis: 'This is about civil rights, not religious freedom'](http://www.wdrb.com/story/29963125/lesbian-couple-who-sued-kim-davis-this-is-about-civil-rights-not-religious-freedom) > > One of four same-sex couples who sued Rowan County\*\* Circuit Court Clerk\*\* Kim Davis over her refusal to issue marriage licenses were the third couple to receive a marriage license on Friday afternoon. [WRONG!](http://rowancountyclerk.com) Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/200 "2015-09-07T23:07:18Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Except the Deputies DID NOT SIGN the licenses, and that is problematic. Deputies may very well have the authority to SIGN the licenses, but the deputies DID NOT SIGN them; they wrote in the name of the county. Those licenses ARE NOT SIGNED by anyone, clerk OR deputy clerk, who holds legal authority to do so. > > I do not buy the legal argument that ONLY the clerk may exercise the county’s authority. However, the documents, under Kentucky law, are supposed to bear the SIGNATURE of some PERSON with the authority to do so. > > God damn, you all are acting like **Terr** supports the clerk. I don’t read the OP that way; it just seems like an interesting legal conundrum. > > I can tell you, if my visa to Cuba is clearly marked that it must be SIGNED by someone in the State Department, I don’t want some deputy to have scribbled in “Department of State” instead on the signature line. Last I heard, Kentucky marriage licences were irrelevant to admission to Cuba, and more to the point, they are not valid for getting married in Cuba. As far as signatures go, they too are irrelevant in the extant matter. The deputies had the authority to issue marriage licences, and they did issue marriage licences. Skipping one step in the process (the signature) does not invalidate the licenses. What counts is that they were duly issued. I challenge you to provide proof of your assertion to the contrary. Most notably, the county clerk’s office has the ability and obligation to remedy the its own inconsequential defects when the licences are returned to them after execution of the marriage certificate portion by the officiant and witnesses. The remedy at that time is to simply accept the unsigned license and fully signed certificate and continue to process it as a validly issued license and validly completed certificate. Remember that the purpose of a signature is to prove that the document was indeed issued by an authorized person. Is there any doubt at all that these licenses were not issued under due authority? The proposition that they were not issued is laughable. Knowingly and deliberately issuing a license with the intention of it being invalid for its purpose and thereby being injurious to the constitutional rights of the parties, and then knowing and deliberately refusing to correct the matter upon return of the document, would likely lead to both criminal charges and civil actions (see upthread for my cite re. criminal liability). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=11)