# According to KY law, the same sex marriage licenses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227 "2015-09-07T03:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/201 "2015-09-07T23:11:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Well of course not, not against the will of BOTH spouses. But if one is able to argue, “We always knew that license was invalid and CHOSE not to get a valid one,” does that argument have ANY legal weight, when coupled with a license that has a county name on the official signature line? No. I mean, they could try, but the fact that they chose to get a license knowing that it _might_ be later ruled invalid strongly suggests that they both _did_ consider it valid. As has been explained, the test is whether an alleged marriage was entered into in good faith by the two parties. The statute provided by **Procrustus** demonstrates that in Kentucky, the marriage is valid even if only one party entered it in good faith. Given the amount of publicity this has gotten, the fact that the couples sued in order to get these licenses, saying that they wanted to get married, and that the judge publicly explained to them and they accepted that the license would lack the official signature normally required, do you think any judge in the future would buy an argument of, “It was just a lark, Your Honor! We did it as a publicity stunt! Neither one of us thought we would actually end up _married_ married!” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/202 "2015-09-07T23:19:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, unless explicitly forbidden to do so by the county clerk who’s their boss. The county clerk and the deputies swore an oath to uphold the constitution of the USA as part of her job. That is their ultimate boss as far as their jobs go. In terms of physical people, their boss is the governor, who prior to the clerk pulling her little stunt, had directed the state’s county clerks to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples or else resign. (Cite: BrightNShiny’s link to the [judge’s decision](https://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/a...ranting_PI.pdf).) **So tell me, Terr, who are the deputies supposed to obey? The constitution and the governor, or the clerk? Please don’t dodge this one.** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/203 "2015-09-07T23:33:06Z")
Here’s another question for **Terr** : What is the proper procedure for a pair of men to get married in Rowan County? That there is a proper procedure is beyond dispute: The Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court, asserts that. And **Terr** is here asserting that the proper procedure was not here followed. So what should those couples have done differently? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/204 "2015-09-07T23:40:23Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Except the Deputies DID NOT SIGN the licenses, and that is problematic. Deputies may very well have the authority to SIGN the licenses, but the deputies DID NOT SIGN them; they wrote in the name of the county. Those licenses ARE NOT SIGNED by anyone, clerk OR deputy clerk, who holds legal authority to do so. > > I do not buy the legal argument that ONLY the clerk may exercise the county’s authority. However, the documents, under Kentucky law, are supposed to bear the SIGNATURE of some PERSON with the authority to do so. > > God damn, you all are acting like **Terr** supports the clerk. I don’t read the OP that way; it just seems like an interesting legal conundrum. > > I can tell you, if my visa to Cuba is clearly marked that it must be SIGNED by someone in the State Department, I don’t want some deputy to have scribbled in “Department of State” instead on the signature line. I’m a willing to go out on a limb here and say I find it highly unlikely there is a court that will declare these licenses invalid. In the unlikely event this did happen, I am certain it would be reversed with lightening speed on appeal. Why? Eternal Master Cecil Adams [once noted](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/546/are-ships-captains-allowed-to-marry-people-at-sea) > [@](#): > > there is a longstanding legal presumption that if two people think they got married, they did get married, even if the proceeding by which this was accomplished was suspect. One of the other posters mentioned something to this point as well and I do believe it to be the prevailing attitude when this comes up in legal proceedings. Considering the clerks issued these licenses under direct order from a Federal judge and this is all a result of a ruling by SCOTUS that found prohibitions of SSM to be invalid, where do you propose finding a court that is going to waste time getting caught up in this? SSM is a done deal and the only way this is likely to be changed is by amending the Constitution or effecting a realignment of the makeup of SCOTUS and engineering a way to get this reversed. Not likely on either count. Until such time this is the law of the land and public officials are required to uphold it or resign. I don’t get why this is such a difficult concept for people to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/205 "2015-09-07T23:42:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s another question for **Terr** : What is the proper procedure for a pair of men to get married in Rowan County? That there is a proper procedure is beyond dispute: The Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court, asserts that. And **Terr** is here asserting that the proper procedure was not here followed. So what should those couples have done differently? Obviously the male same sex couple and the female same sex couple should have swapped partners before getting married, and once properly married to the opposite sex, partake in ongoing conversion therapy conducted by the apostolic christian of their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/206 "2015-09-07T23:47:36Z")
So **Terr** , let’s say the clerk’s staff issue licenses despite her order. Do you think any court is going to throw out the licenses, for which Davis has no legal basis to refuse to issue them? By that matter, who would have standing to bring such matters to court? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/207 "2015-09-07T23:59:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s another question for **Terr** : What is the proper procedure for a pair of men to get married in Rowan County? That there is a proper procedure is beyond dispute: The Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court, asserts that. And **Terr** is here asserting that the proper procedure was not here followed. So what should those couples have done differently? According to the KY law: 1. Go to another county. If that is horribly inconvenient, 2. Wait for the legislature to convene to fire Davis, or 3. Wait for the legislature to change the procedure for issuing licenses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/208 "2015-09-08T00:00:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > According to the KY law: > > 1. Go to another county. If that is horribly inconvenient, > > 2. Wait for the legislature to convene to fire Davis, or > > 3. Wait for the legislature to change the procedure for issuing licenses. According to the judge, the proper procedure by KY law (as modified by court rulings) is for the deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses. I trust his interpretation of KY law more than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/209 "2015-09-08T00:03:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So **Terr** , let’s say the clerk’s staff issue licenses despite her order. Do you think any court is going to throw out the licenses, for which Davis has no legal basis to refuse to issue them? By that matter, who would have standing to bring such matters to court? The clerk’s staff already issued those licenses. AFAIU, the court so far has not ruled whether these licenses are valid or not. As for standing -the gay sore winners have so far gone out of their way to stick a finger in the eye of opponents, so one of those that got those licenses may bring the matter up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/210 "2015-09-08T00:03:16Z")
OK, let me rephrase my question. According to the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court, there is a proper procedure for two men to get married right now, in Rowan County. What is that proper procedure? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/211 "2015-09-08T00:04:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the judge, the proper procedure by KY law (as modified by court rulings) is for the deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses. I trust his interpretation of KY law more than yours. The judge indicated that he has no idea whether the licenses issued this way are valid or not. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/212 "2015-09-08T00:05:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, let me rephrase my question. According to the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court, there is a proper procedure for two men to get married right now, in Rowan County. What is that proper procedure? AFAIU, the Supreme Court relies on the states to implement the proper procedures. The state has a path to do that, as I indicated. That doesn’t mean it has to do it this minute. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/213 "2015-09-08T00:05:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The judge indicated that he has no idea whether the licenses issued this way are valid or not. If so, then until some judge rules that they are invalid, and couples are getting married, then they seem to be functionally valid. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/214 "2015-09-08T00:09:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The clerk’s staff already issued those licenses. AFAIU, the court so far has not ruled whether these licenses are valid or not. As for standing -the gay sore winners have so far gone out of their way to stick a finger in the eye of opponents, so one of those that got those licenses may bring the matter up. “Gay sore winners?” Good lord, you make that sound horribly offensive. Do you really think that some random fundamentalist has standing to challenge someone else’s marriage? Why on earth would someone with merely a political axe to grind have standing? Can you at least acknowledge that it is absurd that a county clerk would issue an illegal order, and that if her staff violate her illegal order in order to carry out the law, you are concerned that the staff are illegally carrying out the law, as the courts and the governor have directed them to? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/215 "2015-09-08T00:11:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > AFAIU, the Supreme Court relies on the states to implement the proper procedures. The state has a path to do that, as I indicated. That doesn’t mean it has to do it this minute. Of all the wrong, very wrong, and exceptionally wrong statements you have made in this thread, this one is the wrong-wrong-wrong-wrongiest. The Supreme Court of United States’ decision became effective immediately. It could have granted time for implementation, but it did not. The Governor of Kentucky himself then forthwith directed the state’s county clerks to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/216 "2015-09-08T00:13:27Z")
No, wait, this is an interesting new wrinkle! If the Court did not intend for the law to be applied “this minute”, I’m curious to know what **Terr** thinks they had in mind! “This is the law of the land, and you _will_ permit gay people to marry each other. When you get around to it. No rush, take your time…” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/217 "2015-09-08T00:14:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … only under the direction of the county clerk. Those are two independent clauses. It would be very easy to add a contingency that said what you wanted it to say, for example: > [@](#): > > Deputy circuit clerks, authorized by and under the direction of the circuit clerk, shall have full power to perform such duties as may be performed by the circuit clerk; and any act of a deputy clerk performed according to such direction is entitled to the same faith and credit as that of > the clerk. Note the restrictive phrase that I underlined. If that phrase were in there, you’d be correct, and the situation would be **very slightly** murkier. (Only slightly, for all the other reasons given above). But that restrictive phrase is not actually in the law. All the law says is that the deputies are under the direction of the circuit court. It doesn’t say that actions they take that violates such directions are robbed of faith and credit. And it won’t say that no matter how many times you keep referring to the cite. > [@](#): > > \*\*tomndebb \*\*provided the [citation](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21179) Yes. Among the things his cite doesn’t say: 1. Dogs are actually highly evolved members of the cabbage family. 2. Picking your nose every day will extend your life expectancy by twenty years. 3. A deputy’s actions are not valid if they are performed in defiance of their boss’s illegal orders. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/218 "2015-09-08T00:14:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > “Gay sore winners?” Good lord, you make that sound horribly offensive. > > Do you really think that some random fundamentalist has standing to challenge someone else’s marriage? Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/219 "2015-09-08T00:16:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > According to the KY law: > > 1. Go to another county. If that is horribly inconvenient, > > 2. Wait for the legislature to convene to fire Davis, or > > 3. Wait for the legislature to change the procedure for issuing licenses. Wrong again. The law in Kentucky in accordance with the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States and as effected by the direction of the Governor of Kentucky is to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples. All you are doing is parroting the dumb clerks’ arguments, which failed miserably in court before a judge who set out the law. (Cited repeatedly upthread.) Who ya gonna believe? The Supreme Court of the United State and the Governor of Kentucky, or a jailbird? You need better legal advice. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/220 "2015-09-08T00:16:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Those are two independent clauses. … because you say so, right? Why are they in the same sentence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=12)