# According to KY law, the same sex marriage licenses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227 "2015-09-07T03:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/241 "2015-09-08T00:41:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then the deputies may refuse to do so. But they cannot, without the clerk’s direction, _do_ something that she didn’t direct them to do. But she directed them to do something illegal. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/242 "2015-09-08T00:42:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Keep twisting into that pretzel. Dude. Seriously? _I’m_ pretzel twisting? The clerk ordered her clerks to do something illegal. It is illegal to deny people licenses who are legally entitled to them. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/243 "2015-09-08T00:42:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Mrs. Davis is not a circuit clerk. As I said before, it makes sense with circuit clerks/deputy clerks, it makes sense with any kind of boss/deputy relationships. It is absurd to claim that the deputies are independently allowed to do anything the boss can, without any input from the boss. That negates any reason to have the boss. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/244 "2015-09-08T00:42:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “and under the direction of the circuit clerk” Wrong again. See my cite above re fiscal court and county administration. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/245 "2015-09-08T00:43:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No it doesn’t. If Alice didn’t read the book, she still might like the book. Only in Wonderland. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/246 "2015-09-08T00:43:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said before, it makes sense with circuit clerks/deputy clerks, it makes sense with any kind of boss/deputy relationships. It is absurd to claim that the deputies are independently allowed to do anything the boss can, without any input from the boss. That negates any reason to have the boss. It makes perfect sense that they are allowed (and required) to obey the instructions of judges and issue marriage licenses (which they are required to do anyway per KY law). Not issuing these licenses would be in violation of the law. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/247 "2015-09-08T00:44:57Z")
Based on the KY law text, it seems pretty clear to me that the clerk has the right and power to issue marriage licenses, but does not have the right and power to refuse to issue marriage licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/248 "2015-09-08T00:45:19Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > . . . until those laws are passed, smoots are free not to lope in any country without a smoot loping law. That is a work of beauty! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/249 "2015-09-08T00:45:23Z")
When the supreme court says state laws are unconstitutional the state laws cease to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/250 "2015-09-08T00:45:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said before, it makes sense with circuit clerks/deputy clerks, it makes sense with any kind of boss/deputy relationships. It is absurd to claim that the deputies are independently allowed to do anything the boss can, without any input from the boss. That negates any reason to have the boss. You are wrong. Your reading of the law was wrong, your interpretation of the law was wrong, and nearly everything you’ve written in this thread has been demonstrably wrong. It really doesn’t matter what you think makes sense or what you think is absurd because, as has been shown to you (and everyone else reading this thread) repeatedly, you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/251 "2015-09-08T00:45:57Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Dude. Seriously? _I’m_ pretzel twisting? > > The clerk ordered her clerks to do something illegal. It is illegal to deny people licenses who are legally entitled to them. > > Agreed? No. The clerk ordered her deputies NOT to do something. And as I said before, again, the whole thing that only NOW that she is in jail they can issue licenses negates the whole “they can do whatever they want no matter what she directs” reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/252 "2015-09-08T00:47:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Based on the KY law text, it seems pretty clear to me that the clerk has the right and power to issue marriage licenses, but does not have the right and power to refuse to issue marriage licenses. She does not have the right, she has the obligation: “The license shall be issued…” In legalese, “shall” means “must”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/253 "2015-09-08T00:47:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Based on the KY law text, it seems pretty clear to me that the clerk has the right and power to issue marriage licenses, but does not have the right and power to refuse to issue marriage licenses. Which is why she is in jail. But as long as she refuses to direct her deputies to issue those licenses, I believe that the law doesn’t allow them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/254 "2015-09-08T00:48:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which is why she is in jail. But as long as she refuses to direct her deputies to issue those licenses, I believe that the law doesn’t allow them to do so. Your belief has no basis in fact or in law. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/255 "2015-09-08T00:49:11Z")
It’s worth pointing out that in your example sentence, you deliberately tried to construct it so that it wouldn’t make sense if the first clause weren’t true. But that’s disanalogous. In the real world, it’s better law if the two clauses aren’t connected. We want people to be able to trust in the deputy at the courthouse. If that deputy’s actions aren’t obviously as good as the clerk’s actions, people will reasonably refuse to get their marriage license signed by the deputy. What if the clerk is the kind of asshole who’s telling her employees not to issue licenses, after all, and that’ll make their marriage license invalid? We want people to be able to trust what the deputy says, goes. The first clause says deputies have to follow the clerk’s directions. The second clause says that the public can trust the deputy’s actions. That second clause is true even if the deputy is not following directions from her boss. And that’s good law. The public should be able to trust public servants. If you want to shittify the law the way you’re suggesting, you need to petition for a rewrite. As it is, it’s good law. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/256 "2015-09-08T00:49:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. The clerk ordered her deputies NOT to do something. And as I said before, again, the whole thing that only NOW that she is in jail they can issue licenses negates the whole “they can do whatever they want no matter what she directs” reasoning. That was an illegal order, and the deputy clerks are required by law (per the judge’s ruling) to disobey it. > [@Terr](#): > > Which is why she is in jail. But as long as she refuses to direct her deputies to issue those licenses, I believe that the law doesn’t allow them to do so. According to the judge (and what seems clear to me is that) the law requires the deputies to disobey her unlawful instruction and issue the licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/257 "2015-09-08T00:51:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then the deputies may refuse to do so. But they cannot, without the clerk’s direction, _do_ something that she didn’t direct them to do. Wrong again. As cited in a statute upthread, the deputies have the authority as well as the clerk. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/258 "2015-09-08T00:52:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which is why she is in jail. But as long as she refuses to direct her deputies to issue those licenses, I believe that the law doesn’t allow them to do so. Nobody cares what you believe the law allows or doesn’t allow, particularly since you started this thread completely ignorant of KY law and one assertion of yours after another has been shown to be incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/259 "2015-09-08T00:53:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. The clerk ordered her deputies NOT to do something. And as I said before, again, the whole thing that only NOW that she is in jail they can issue licenses negates the whole “they can do whatever they want no matter what she directs” reasoning. Was it legal for the clerk to deny marriage licenses to people who are legally entitled to them? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227/260 "2015-09-08T00:56:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which is why she is in jail. But as long as she refuses to direct her deputies to issue those licenses, I believe that the law doesn’t allow them to do so. So you think the law binds the deputies to follow illegal orders, right? Seriously? You really think people are required by law to do something illegal. I know everyone has thought this, but let me say it: that is ducking ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-ky-law-the-same-sex-marriage-licenses/730227.md?page=14)