# According to Traditional and Mainstream Islamic Source, the Prophet Muhammad Raped a Child **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112 "2013-04-07T23:30:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/221 "2013-04-15T00:01:27Z")
5 pages of “Uh Huh!” quickly followed by “Nuh Uh!”. This, truly, is why the internet was invented. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/222 "2013-04-15T00:05:07Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > A country doesn’t have to be a theocracy for Islam to command a great deal of political and day to day power within it. Are you denying that Islam seeks far greater control of a nation state than most other religions? Or that governance in countries where Muslims are the majority is not driven more by religion than other countries? Fuck that, Muslims are only 14 percent of the population in India and Sharia law applies to them. What other major religion has a legal system? Which other major religion has a SINGLE theocracy, let alone three or four you can name off the top of your head? I’m afraid you’ve lost the perspective of history. Everything you say about Islam could have been said about Christianity 400 years ago. We can blame the folks in Saudi Arabia for keeping their country in the middle ages, but there is nothing inherent in Islam that can’t be overcome by a good ol’ reformation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/223 "2013-04-15T00:13:15Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > \ So essentially you’re conceding that out if the 60 plus countries that are predominantly Muslim you can count on one hand the number that could be called theocracies. > [@](#): > > As a core belief, just the idea of prayer five times a day is repugnant enough for me. How about segregation of women in mosques So you find Judaism “repugnant”? Isn’t that a little strong? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/224 "2013-04-15T00:28:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m afraid you’ve lost the perspective of history. Everything you say about Islam could have been said about Christianity 400 years ago. We can blame the folks in Saudi Arabia for keeping their country in the middle ages, but there is nothing inherent in Islam that can’t be overcome by a good ol’ reformation. Who said there is? I’m just saying the _need_ for reformation is greatest in Islam. And one isn’t in sight. ETA: As a matter of fact, the reformation angle was discussed upthread. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/225 "2013-04-15T00:30:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So essentially you’re conceding that out if the 60 plus countries that are predominantly Muslim you can count on one hand the number that could be called theocracies. > > So you find Judaism “repugnant”? > > Isn’t that a little strong? Meh. Serves me right for trying to engage you. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/226 "2013-04-15T00:34:51Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > 5 pages of “Uh Huh!” quickly followed by “Nuh Uh!”. This, truly, is why the internet was invented. Oh come now. The internet also exists so that people can _show_ that they’re above it all, instead of being, y’know, above it all. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/227 "2013-04-15T01:30:28Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Meh. Serves me right for trying to engage you. Why are you upset with me? I’m supporting you for having the guts to make it clear you find Judaism repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/228 "2013-04-15T02:13:37Z")
Don’t forget Christianity, **Ibn Warraq**. If she thinks it’s so bad to pray a mere five times a day, she’ll be up in arms over the command in the Gospel of Luke to “pray always”. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/229 "2013-04-15T03:47:44Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Don’t forget Christianity, **Ibn Warraq**. If she thinks it’s so bad to pray a mere five times a day, she’ll be up in arms over the command in the Gospel of Luke to “pray always”. I would be, if I thought it had any real effect on the world. All religion is bad. Islam’s higher ritual reinforcement is among the things that are problematic with it. Do you think the treatment of women within Islam is dandy? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/230 "2013-04-15T04:12:02Z")
“child marriages continue to be practiced, and the fact that the Prophet himself married Aisha when she was only nine and he was fifty-three encourages Muslim society to continue with this iniquitous custom.” Ibn Warraq, “Why I Am Not a Muslim”, p. 320 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/231 "2013-04-15T05:16:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Do you think the treatment of women within Islam is dandy? None of the Abrahamic faiths have much to crow about when it comes to the treatment of women. It should be noted though that in the medieval Middle East, which had large numbers of people of all three faiths living together, as Bernard Lewis noted, Christian and Jewish leaders repeatedly complained to the Islamic authorities about how many Christian and Jewish women would convert to Islam when they wanted to divorce their husbands because divorced women got a much better deal in Islam. Beyond that, while I’m not happy with the way women are treated in Morocco or Jordan, it’s vastly better than the way they’re treated in much of Asia(most of which isn’t Muslim), Sub-Saharran Africa(either the Muslim or the Christian parts) and probably about the same in most of Latin America(which is overwhelmingly Christian). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/232 "2013-04-15T07:40:47Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I would be, if I thought it had any real effect on the world. What? You seriously don’t believe that Christianity–in particular, Protestant Christianity–doesn’t have an effect on life in the US and other western countries? You’re either oblivious, misinformed, or not exactly up front here. > [@](#): > > All religion is bad. That’s your opinion. I’ve seen plenty from Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and even Islam, to name a few, to show that there is plenty of good in those religions and that followers of those religions do plenty of good. I suggest you get out more, expand your horizons. > [@](#): > > Islam’s higher ritual reinforcement is among the things that are problematic with it. What are you talking about? Provide specifics–and don’t go off on a skew (I’d use the term _tangent_; however, your comments directed at a couple of other posters in this thread prove that your posts oft have nothing to do with what was actually said to you)–as to what “ritual enforcement” is, how it applies to law, and how general society overall accepts it. And definitely don’t take one small area or one country and say that represents all of the people you’re discussing. > [@](#): > > Do you think the treatment of women within Islam is dandy? Which area of the world are we talking about? Which branch of Islam are we talking about? What treatment of women are we talking about? Do you even know what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/233 "2013-04-15T09:04:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What? You seriously don’t believe that Christianity–in particular, Protestant Christianity–doesn’t have an effect on life in the US and other western countries? You’re either oblivious, misinformed, or not exactly up front here. I was talking about your reference to Luke’s injunction, not Christianity. > [@](#): > > That’s your opinion. I’ve seen plenty from Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and even Islam, to name a few, to show that there is plenty of good in those religions and that followers of those religions do plenty of good. I suggest you get out more, expand your horizons. It certainly is my opinion that religion on balance is a net negative for humanity. And I’m not alone in this opinion either. Particularly not on this board. > [@](#): > > What are you talking about? Provide specifics I’m talking about the fact that Muslims are required to pray five times a day. Regular rites and rituals are one of the ways in which religions bind believers to themselves. Islam does so more than others. This is solely my opinion, and one of the ways in which I consider Islam to be worse than other religions. Other ways - It has been pointed out earlier in this thread that the condition of women is generally poorer in Islamic countries. Islam also extends into the legal and political domain to a far greater extent than any other religion. > [@](#): > > –and don’t go off on a skew (I’d use the term _tangent_; however, your comments directed at a couple of other posters in this thread prove that your posts oft have nothing to do with what was actually said to you) You’re mistaken here. I suspect you’re not paying attention to what I’ve written, or what I’m responding to. I’ve made exactly one statement in this thread that was not a direct response to what someone else said. So how about backing this statement up with some specifics of your own? > [@](#): > > Which area of the world are we talking about? Which branch of Islam are we talking about? What treatment of women are we talking about? Do you even know what you’re talking about? Let me approach this another way. What would make you believe that the treatment of women in Islam dominated areas is worse than the treatment of women elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/234 "2013-04-15T09:07:10Z")
Oh, I’ve read your malarkey. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/235 "2013-04-15T16:10:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > None of the Abrahamic faiths have much to crow about when it comes to the treatment of women. You are giving Islam credit for every bit of positive treatment you can scrape up, as long as it occurred or is occurring in a majority Muslim area of the world. To be consistent and do the same for Christianity you would then need to give it credit for women’s suffrage and abolitionist movements. Which certainly is something to crow about. Personally, I would be consistent and say that those events happened largely in spite of Christianity, in the same way that the treatment of Muslim women has improved in some places in spite of Islam. > [@](#): > > It should be noted though that in the medieval Middle East, which had large numbers of people of all three faiths living together, as Bernard Lewis noted, Christian and Jewish leaders repeatedly complained to the Islamic authorities about how many Christian and Jewish women would convert to Islam when they wanted to divorce their husbands because divorced women got a much better deal in Islam. Sure, Islam was no worse than Christianity back when Christianity was used to justify marital rape, slavery, genocide, and witch hunts. No problem! > [@](#): > > Beyond that, while I’m not happy with the way women are treated in Morocco or Jordan, it’s vastly better than the way they’re treated in much of Asia(most of which isn’t Muslim), Sub-Saharran Africa(either the Muslim or the Christian parts) and probably about the same in most of Latin America(which is overwhelmingly Christian). So you can not find any Muslim countries who’s treatment of women you find acceptable, but you craft apologies for Islam anyway: in the best examples you find women are treated similarly or maybe even better than in those non-Muslim societies which are the very worst for women. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/236 "2013-04-16T07:29:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Oh, I’ve read your malarkey. I responded seriously to your post that was couched in fairly unproductive and offensive language, and asked you for a serious response in turn. Good show. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/237 "2013-04-16T12:46:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I would \*\*guess \*\*that the spread of technology, the movement of peoples based on economic opportunity, and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire is very likely creating a situation that parallels, in some ways, sixteenth century Europe and will very probably result in a similar development in Islamic thought. In the world as it is currently, economic prosperity, immigration(there are millions of immigrants in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations), technology(TV, spread of internet etc), literacy etc haven’t been able to subvert Islam in many countries. Male Polygamy, Burqas, Fatwas, Sharia etc still carry weight among Muslims. One can only guess that whether or not the reform will happen and when it will happen if it has to happen(20 years or 2000 years). ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/238 "2013-04-17T04:51:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, for starters, in the areas where Muslims practice female circumcision, such as Egypt, Christians also practice female circumcision. > > Similarly, in the tribal parts of the Middle East, where Muslims engage in honor killings, members of other religions do as well. > > For example, in Iraq, the Yezdis also match their Kurdish counterparts when it comes to honor killings. > > For that matter, when I mention Kurds, it’s not because the Kurds are more “evil” or “misogynist” than other Iraqis, but that they tend to be more “tribal”(for lack of a better word) than other Iraqis. I am amazed that tomndeb responded with alacrity and enthusiasm to bldysabba while completely ignoring the completely unfounded accusations in Ibn Warren’s post. Ibn Warren made the claim that Christians practice female circumcision. As someone who claims to be a Christian, not to mention someone who is a long-time member of SDMB and as such is supposedly opposed to un-cited bullshit, I would think tomndeb would actually have a response to this . . . if he was actually a Christian… If he was actually interested in actual facts . . . . It is just amazing how much uncited crap Ibn Warren has been allowed to get away with in this thread . . . . I don’t know if Hank Beecher’s position is logically solid. I do know that this thread has been a gang-bang on Hank Beecher and a ‘we don’t care if ur full of BS because ur one of us’ circle-jerk by the powers-that-be. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/239 "2013-04-17T05:03:09Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > I am amazed that tomndeb responded with alacrity and enthusiasm to bldysabba while completely ignoring the completely unfounded accusations in Ibn Warren’s post. > > Ibn Warren made the claim that Christians practice female circumcision. As someone who claims to be a Christian, not to mention someone who is a long-time member of SDMB and as such is supposedly opposed to un-cited bullshit, I would think tomndeb would actually have a response to this . . . if he was actually a Christian… If he was actually interested in actual facts . . . . It is just amazing how much uncited crap Ibn Warren has been allowed to get away with in this thread . . . . Er…yes, female circmcision is widely practiced among the Copts. Or are you going to insist they aren’t Christians. Please don’t ever imply I’m a liar again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/240 "2013-04-17T06:07:27Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > I am amazed that tomndeb responded with alacrity and enthusiasm to bldysabba while completely ignoring the completely unfounded accusations in Ibn Warren’s post. I, on the othe hand, am not at all surprised that a person who wants all negative comments directed toward one group would be (or pretend to be) unaware that other groups engage in the same behavior: > **[Religious views on female genital mutilation | Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#Christianity)** > > The Bible does not mention FGM.\[c\] Christian authorities agree that the practice has no foundation in Christianity's religious texts, and Christian missionaries in Africa were at the forefront of efforts to stop it. Indeed, they led the way in referring to it as mutilation; from 1929 the Kenya Missionary Council called it the "sexual mutilation of women", following the lead of Marion Scott Stevenson, a Church of Scotland missionary. When, in the 1930s, Christian missionaries tried to make the Des... [Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_circ.htm#) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112.md?page=13)