# According to Traditional and Mainstream Islamic Source, the Prophet Muhammad Raped a Child **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112 "2013-04-07T23:30:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/121 "2013-04-11T06:19:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course it’s relevant. > > By the standards you set, every Christian should have the choice of either becoming an apostate or endorsing incest since Jesus said they’re supposed to follow “every jot and tittle of the law” or become an apostate and risk being killed since the Bible also teaches apostates are to be killed. It has been that way for many Christians in times past. Many culturally Christian atheists, doubters, and critics have died so that Jesus may be mercilessly lampoon on South Park. At this point in history it is the culturally [Muslim atheist bloggers](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gvgXRcLgESI9K6wFCyhmT32zJswg) who are dying. I concede that the last sentence of the OP does not apply to all Muslims. Do you conceded point number two? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/122 "2013-04-11T06:30:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course it’s relevant. > > By the standards you set, every Christian should have the choice of either becoming an apostate or endorsing incest since Jesus said they’re supposed to follow “every jot and tittle of the law” or become an apostate and risk being killed since the Bible also teaches apostates are to be killed. Without even reading further into this thread, I feel safe on giving 5:8 odds that Hank Beecher (Why does the term Hee-bees come to mind when I read his drivel?) will say that verse has been abrogated? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/123 "2013-04-11T06:47:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What I notice is that the only two places where we see anyone even caring about the Aisha-as-nine-year-old tale is among people bashing Islam and loons promoting Islam. [Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries.](http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2011/10/02/sharia-law-has-led-to-the-legislation-of-child-marriage-in-6-countries.html) > [@](#): > > Are there places in the world where the tale is used to rationalize horrid treatment of young girls? It seems so. It appears to happen in those regions of the world where the women are treated badly, to begin with, What do you mean “to begin with”? Like way back, oh say, 1400 years ago? > [@](#): > > and where the Muslims tend to ignore or selectively interpret those passages of the Qur’an that would protect women’s rights of independence and security. What are your qualifications to determine that they are incorrectly interpreting their source texts? What you don’t get is that you are seeing the whole thing from your point of view. You have your circular logic and true believers have their own different kind, and you are assuming they use yours. You give Islam the benefit of the doubt of being generally benign and peaceful, so if something nasty is being justified by it, it must be a mis-interpretation. A person who assumes that the commandments of god and the actions of the prophet are perfection sees things differently. If he sees something that makes his stomach turn he gives god the benefit of the doubt, and assumes that the horrible thing is actually a good thing that his limited, human rational mind can not understand. > [@](#): > > In other words, in cultures where they behave badly, they cherry-pick the parts of their holy writings that support their bad behavior This is not some cherry-picked backwater interpretation, this is the Sharia. > [@](#): > > –pretty much the way that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and everyone else does. Outside the MENA region, (or even in the cities in MENA), it does not appear that the matter of child brides is widespread, Sure since it only happens in Nigeria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Niger, and Sudan, its not really a big deal. > [@](#): > > much less that they are using that particular Hadith as a way to rationalize it. It is part of Sharia, because the prophet (is said to have) did it. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/124 "2013-04-11T07:14:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why? How many Islamic scholars have weighed in on this exact issue? [Is](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFTMQY8S_po) [very](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c79AXU8bOSQ) [many](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_4Ag2wFfjQ) [a](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgqxbLTEK0) [good](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7PIITikyTQ) [enough](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlrJxaxaHRU) [answer](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJBGLW5MjyY)? (The last lecture is in Urdu, I think he is confirming the ages 6 and 9, “che” and “nau”) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/125 "2013-04-11T07:35:26Z")
[This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtIVQZPtp6Q) is the most influential guy that I can find who is challenging the Bukhari hadiths. He is not challenging that it is the traditional interpretation, he claims it is a fabrication that has been added to embarrass Muslims, and claims Muslims “need to be brave enough to admit it.” He says he has no problem with the age nine though, he does not consider that to be embarrassing. He is challenging the fact that there could have been any kind of marriage or engagement at six. Note that this potential reform is a reaction to ridicule from outside of the Muslim world. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/126 "2013-04-11T08:44:55Z")
That was the best you could find? You’d never heard of Reza Aslan? He’s the author of No God But God and a professor at one of the UC schools. Did you decide he doesn’t count because he’s a Shia? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/127 "2013-04-11T09:08:58Z")
From the trivial coincidences desk: Just yeterday I was reading a book (_The Ark of the Covenant_ by Grierson and Munro-Hay) and came upon > [@](#): > > The Battle of the Camel …Ali ibn Abi Talib … was facing a coalition that refused to [accept him as the Caliph]. Among them was Aisha ‘Mother of the Faithful,’ who had been the favourite wife of the Prophet. Aisha had regarded Ali as a mortal enemy for years. He had urged Muhammad to repudiate her when a young man rescued her after she had been left behind by a caravan on the road to Medina, and accusations had been made that her virtue was now compromised. She was still only eighteen years old when the Prophet died, and she remainded determined to oppose Ali… > [she then goes into the thick of the battle, bare breasted but concealed in an armored litter atop a camel. She is captured] I remember thinking she must have been a young bride but passed on… The very next day I open this thread. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/128 "2013-04-11T12:00:33Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > He is challenging the fact that there could have been any kind of marriage or engagement at six. You are aware that in the medieval world, and even today in the Arab world in some places, there are child marriages in which there is an expectation (or even enforcement by marriage contract) that it will not be consummated until post-puberty? Which isn’t to say that it was the case here: it’s up for debate since there are certain historical views that it _was_ consummated before then. I just don’t care enough to look into it one way or another. It’s not as if the Muslim world makes this an important part of their theology. It would simply make me look down on the historical dude moreso than I already do. Just like the philanderings of MLK make me look down on him, and even make me embarassed about his hagiography that children receive in school, but does not take away from his other work, whether that work be good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/129 "2013-04-11T13:02:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If your statement isn’t bigoted, then you have no reason to try to convince anyone that you aren’t a bigot. People only suspect bigotry from people who say bigoted things. > > And I’m not exactly thought of as the smartest person around here, either. Well, unsurprising. With that mindset you’d have been a whee of a public prosecutor in Salem in 1692. “If you are not a witch, then you have no reason to try to convince anyone that you aren’t a witch. Only the guilty try to defend themselves!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/130 "2013-04-11T16:16:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That was the best you could find? > > You’d never heard of Reza Aslan? > > He’s the author of No God But God and a professor at one of the UC schools. > > Did you decide he doesn’t count because he’s a Shia? How often do you think sociology professors from California state colleges are cited at Al Azhar University? This is simply another Westerner repeating the same revisionist claims to a Western audience. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/131 "2013-04-11T16:19:04Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > How often do you think sociology professors from California state colleges are cited at Al Azhar University? > > This is simply another Westerner repeating the same revisionist claims to a Western audience. He is “simply another westerner”? He’s from Tehran. Since when did Iran become part of the West. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/132 "2013-04-11T16:38:40Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You are aware that in the medieval world, and even today in the Arab world in some places, there are child marriages in which there is an expectation (or even enforcement by marriage contract) that it will not be consummated until post-puberty? > > Which isn’t to say that it was the case here: it’s up for debate since there are certain historical views that it _was_ consummated before then. Not exactly. It is my understanding that the mainstream view of sharia today is that marriage contracts can not be consummated until the _beginning_ of puberty, and that like you say it is [up for debate](http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an) whether this has always been the case. > [@](#): > > I just don’t care enough to look into it one way or another. It’s not as if the Muslim world makes this an important part of their theology. It is the basis for the allowance in sharia law for children as young as 9 years old to raped by their “husbands”. There are armed groups/state factions attempting and succeeding in implementing sharia to various degrees in Sudan, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Mali, Tunisia, Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Syria. Plus all of the places I left out. > [@](#): > > It would simply make me look down on the historical dude moreso than I already do. Just like the philanderings of MLK make me look down on him, and even make me embarassed about his hagiography that children receive in school, but does not take away from his other work, whether that work be good or bad. Historically we don’t have enough evidence to consider this account of Aisha’s marriage to be any more than a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/133 "2013-04-11T16:39:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He is “simply another westerner”? > > He’s from Tehran. > > Since when did Iran become part of the West. Where was he educated, where does he teach, and who his is audience? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/134 "2013-04-11T16:54:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He is “simply another westerner”? > > He’s from Tehran. [QUOTE=his wikpedia] Aslan’s family came to the United States from Tehran in 1979, fleeing the Iranian Revolution. He grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. In the early 1990s, Aslan taught courses at De La Salle High School in Concord, California. In August 2000, while serving as the Truman Capote Fellow at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, Aslan was named Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Iowa, becoming the first full-time professor of Islam in the history of the state.[6] After the September 11 attacks, Aslan put his expertise of the Middle East to work for both the university and the greater Iowa community by traveling throughout the state speaking to public and private organizations, businesses, churches, mosques, and universities. His efforts in Iowa received national attention in such periodicals as USA Today, U.S. News & World Report, and The Chronicle of Higher Education. [/QUOTE] I had a good friend in high school who’s family was among those who fled the Iranian revolution, and yes, he was a Westerner then, and certainly is now, 20+ years after we graduated. He loves ZZ Top and AC/DC and freedom, in Iran his family was very secular, that’s why they fled the revolution! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/135 "2013-04-11T17:16:22Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [Is](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFTMQY8S_po) [very](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c79AXU8bOSQ) [many](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_4Ag2wFfjQ) [a](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgqxbLTEK0) [good](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7PIITikyTQ) [enough](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlrJxaxaHRU) [answer](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJBGLW5MjyY)? > > (The last lecture is in Urdu, I think he is confirming the ages 6 and 9, “che” and “nau”) I’m not going to watch youtube videos to figure out your cites for you, and certainly not in Urdu. So no. A handful of videos you found on youtube (youtube? Really?) are not a good enough answer. You are claiming this is the mainstream, accepted, undeniable view. I want actual scholarly evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/136 "2013-04-11T17:42:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ve always found this line of attack on Muhammad quite weird since there are so many other lines of attack. > > For example, he explicitly defended slavery, had slaves himself, and freely said that masters could have sex with their female slaves whenever they wanted. That is because child rapists are considered even worse than pimps. There are many other parts of the Koran and hadiths that are obviously incompatible with our modern value system: commandments in the Koran for men to beat their wives, the sex slave business you refer to, the general warlording and massacres, violently destroying other peoples religions, ect. But no part of the story of Mo makes it more glaringly obvious that he is a horrible example to follow than his rape of Aisha. If a real reformist movement develops in Islam it is likely to originate over this embarrassing issue. If these most authentic hadiths can be called into question, then so can any others. And (it is the consensus among Muslims) without hadiths there is no Islam, despite [minor attempts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/137 "2013-04-11T17:47:59Z")
I didn’t realize that one couldn’t be a real Muslim if one likes ZZ Top and AC/DC. What other rock bands are considered Harraam? Can one like the Rolling Stones, or at least the Beatles? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/138 "2013-04-11T17:54:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m not going to watch youtube videos to figure out your cites for you, and certainly not in Urdu. > > So no. A handful of videos you found on youtube (youtube? Really?) are not a good enough answer. You are claiming this is the mainstream, accepted, undeniable view. I want actual scholarly evidence. Muslim scholars use video to communicate, it should not be that surprising. These are Muslim scholars with authority in the Muslim world speaking to Muslims. The [Wikipedia page on Aisha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage) also has citations. Others have been provided in this thread, as well as evidence that this part of Mo’s bio is widely used to justify child rape. If you refuse to consider evidence I do not know what else to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/139 "2013-04-11T17:59:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I didn’t realize that one couldn’t be a real Muslim if one likes ZZ Top and AC/DC. > > What other rock bands are considered Harraam? > > Can one like the Rolling Stones, or at least the Beatles? You have some seriously mobile goal posts there murtad. I did not say he wasn’t a Muslim, I sad he was a Westerner, based on the fact that he was raised and educated in the West, and is employed in the West. Of course guitar rock[IS considered haraam](http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1786) by many, despite ZZ tops awesome beards, but that is another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112/140 "2013-04-11T20:42:28Z")
Yes modern music is considered haraam. That’s why videos like this don’t play 24-7 at just about any bar throughout the Middle East including Saudi Arabia. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpz9GECIVes](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpz9GECIVes) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/according-to-traditional-and-mainstream-islamic-source-the-prophet-muhammad-raped-a-child/655112.md?page=8)