# Accounts of guilt-wracked men who weren't drafted in US wars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484 "2012-01-14T05:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/41 "2012-01-16T21:01:53Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > It’s pretty much common knowledge. Then it shouldn’t be hard to find a cite. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/42 "2012-01-16T22:10:38Z")
One advantage of the draft would be putting bodies where the bodies are needed. Enlistees tend to have a particular branch of the military that they prefer. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/43 "2012-01-16T22:14:37Z")
I believe the French experienced the headache of mass volunteer enlistment at the beginning of WWI. Men were leaving vital jobs to join the army. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/44 "2012-01-16T23:12:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Every war that didn’t involve a draft. > [@treis](#): > > Then it shouldn’t be hard to find a cite. [Mobilization in World War II](http://www.history.army.mil/documents/mobpam.htm) is an interesting introduction to the topic. The “brochure was prepared in the U.S. Army Center of Military History by Frank N. Schubert.” [The Selective Training and Service Act of 1940](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Training_and_Service_Act_of_1940), the first peacetime draft, limited training to 900,000 men at any one time. The exact number varied during the war because all predictions of needed personnel went up by almost a power of ten, but the largest camps could only handle about 70,000 troops a year. Training regimes varied but the combined basic/advanced training period lasted about [four months](http://www.historyshots.com/usarmy/backstory.cfm). I’d ask you for a cite in return, but I have no idea what you’re trying to say. The Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Nam all had formal conscription. No other war the U.S. was involved in was anywhere near that magnitude. Most other countries have some form of national service, so their examples wouldn’t be comparable. Desperate countries often throw totally unprepared troops into service, but that’s not comparable either. The U.S. in WWII had the luxury of two years to ramp up to D-Day levels and troops received a normal 8 months of additional training after basic/advanced. So I guess the question is, what countries in what wars at what times have not been constrained by the number of troops they could train, outfit, prepare, and move at one time? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/45 "2012-01-16T23:25:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … > > Vietnam was a completely different situation. In WWII draftees and enlistees were used in pretty much the same ways across combat and support. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Recruiting_Command) has a quote about Nam: > Every male in the country knew that if you got drafted you were meat. That put a very high premium on enlisting so that you could go off to Germany or somewhere away from the firing line, as the recruiters specifically promised. > … I used to know someone who said that when he found out that he would be drafted, went ahead and joined the Navy, figuring that he wouldn’t be in as much danger. He apparently had a decent but not very glorious experience as an enlisted sailor. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/46 "2012-01-17T00:02:45Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [Mobilization in World War II](http://www.history.army.mil/documents/mobpam.htm) is an interesting introduction to the topic. The “brochure was prepared in the U.S. Army Center of Military History by Frank N. Schubert.” > > [The Selective Training and Service Act of 1940](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Training_and_Service_Act_of_1940), the first peacetime draft, limited training to 900,000 men at any one time. The exact number varied during the war because all predictions of needed personnel went up by almost a power of ten, but the largest camps could only handle about 70,000 troops a year. Training regimes varied but the combined basic/advanced training period lasted about [four months](http://www.historyshots.com/usarmy/backstory.cfm). > > I’d ask you for a cite in return, but I have no idea what you’re trying to say. The Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Nam all had formal conscription. No other war the U.S. was involved in was anywhere near that magnitude. Most other countries have some form of national service, so their examples wouldn’t be comparable. Desperate countries often throw totally unprepared troops into service, but that’s not comparable either. The U.S. in WWII had the luxury of two years to ramp up to D-Day levels and troops received a normal 8 months of additional training after basic/advanced. > > So I guess the question is, what countries in what wars at what times have not been constrained by the number of troops they could train, outfit, prepare, and move at one time? You’re supposed to be convincing me that the draft in WWII was for efficiency reasons, and not because they couldn’t get enough recruits. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/47 "2012-01-17T00:38:29Z")
I was in the very first Vietnam-era draft lottery and had a number of about 350. I wasn’t eager to go but I did feel a little like I wasn’t pulling my weight. After college I worked with a WWII vet (B-52 Crewman? I think). I told him I felt some regret that he had served for our country and I hadn’t. He said I absolutely 100% should not feel any sense of guilt about it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/48 "2012-01-17T01:42:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You’re supposed to be convincing me that the draft in WWII was for efficiency reasons, and not because they couldn’t get enough recruits. And you’re supposed to be providing cites to affirm your contentions. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/49 "2012-01-17T03:15:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And you’re supposed to be providing cites to affirm your contentions. I have provided data to back up my position. You haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/50 "2012-01-17T03:50:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I have provided data to back up my position. You haven’t. So we’re at a stalemate. I’m happy to let everybody look at my posts compared to yours and do their own evaluation. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/51 "2012-01-17T05:08:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > So we’re at a stalemate. I’m happy to let everybody look at my posts compared to yours and do their own evaluation. How about you? I’d like you to provide a cite to support your claim that the draft was used to make the process orderly, and not because they needed bodies. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/52 "2012-01-17T06:37:01Z")
> [@UncleFred](#): > > I was in the very first Vietnam-era draft lottery and had a number of about 350. I wasn’t eager to go but I did feel a little like I wasn’t pulling my weight. After college I worked with a WWII vet (B-52 Crewman? I think). I told him I felt some regret that he had served for our country and I hadn’t. He said I absolutely 100% should not feel any sense of guilt about it. 350? And you felt guilty? This might be telling: I know from where **Fred** is coming, Me? I’d’ve gotten over it, and did decades ago, but I know what he’s talking about. Honor vs Reality is hard to explain. ---
**Author:** ![applebetty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4af34b/32.png) [@applebetty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/applebetty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/53 "2012-01-18T18:21:20Z")
When my grandfather was in his mid-nineties he started talking about how he regretted not serving in WWII. He was the youngest of 21 children and would have been 34 at the start of the war, but he was the last son left to run the farm, and was also the local feed distributor. Two or three of his older brothers had served in previous wars. According to him he was not allowed to serve but you could hear the pain and regret in his voice. I told him that he provided admirable and essential service by keeping not only his family’s farm going, but those of many neighbors. I also told him that I was proud of him and that he was the best man I knew. He truly was, he never met a stranger, he was kind, honest and generous. I miss him very much. He was proud of my service even though it was during the cold war. ---
**Author:** ![lazyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@lazyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazyboy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/54 "2013-01-26T10:40:11Z")
Even though I had friends who were drafted and a couple went to Nam, to me Vietnam and the military was a million miles away. All I cared about in those days was my job, my car, partying and having a good time–period. Now that I’m retired, less than 2 months away from turning 62, I regret it. Men who served in the military have a bond that differs from any other form of friendship. While I didn’t concern myself with the politics of the time, I certainly didn’t feel the country was at risk of attack by the Communists! A lot of men and women were killed or injured for nothing. We had no clear cut goal or exit strategy. We just went over and showed the world what American military power could do and killed tens of thousands of people in the process. The politicians knew we weren’t getting anything out of it! I feel if this country REALLY wanted to save South Vietnam and the politicians left the war to the military like the Gulf War, we would have been in and out in 2 years! So while I feel guilty that my life had no serious meaning or goals in the 60’s I know I didn’t run or hide. I was lazy in school so I definitely couldn’t get a 2-S, I was in good shape so I couldn’t be 4-F, so I merely sat there with my 1-A and got a 241 in the draft lottery and went on with my life. I had a friend who got # 5 in the same lottery and headed for Canada. It cost him some serious money in legal issues before the draft dodgers received amnesty. I haven’t seen him in 25+ years but I know this. If I had done what he did, I wouldn’t be able to look a Vietnam or ANY Vet in the face----EVER! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/55 "2013-01-26T11:07:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I suspect there was rather less sobbing after 1943, when Americans began dying in significant numbers. I wonder if you’ve interacted much with men before, but by way of experiment I’d suggest the following: Go up to a recent combat vet of Iraq and ask him his story. If he mentions that he worked mainly in places like [the North Zone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iraq_2003_occupation.png), you should then wink and congratulate him for dodging out of real danger in someplace like [Fallujah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah), where Americans were dying in significant numbers. Watch as he chuckles and agrees with you. Maybe even buys you a beer. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/56 "2013-01-26T11:18:51Z")
(“significant numbers” of course being relative, less than 100 for that particular battle – nothing on the scale of World War II, where you might be left behind cooling your heels at home, with a virtual certainty that a couple of guys in your high school would see their moms become Gold Star Mothers, and they’d be looking at _you_ in the corner store every day you went to town.) ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/57 "2013-01-26T13:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > My dad was drafted for WWII and he said he saw rejected, 4F men literally sobbing because they couldn’t serve. > [@](#): > > I call bullshit. Your call of bullshit is wrong…the first quote above is correct My cite?—personal stories told to me by an 85 year old relative…who himself sat down and sobbed when the army rejected him. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/58 "2013-01-26T13:27:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I took my turn in the lottery with everyone else during the Vietnam Era… I do sometimes wonder what my life would have been like if I had volunteered… Short? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/59 "2013-01-26T13:33:55Z")
I was drafted in 1968 but was listed as 4f from a foot ball injury to the knee. I still feel guilty to some degree and feel like I should have done more to get the knee fixed. I still haven’t had the knee fixed and sometimes feel like I avoided the surgery to punish myself. Both my brothers served and came back fine with no regrets. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484/60 "2013-01-26T20:11:50Z")
My draft lottery number was 333. I have never felt any shame or guilt over this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accounts-of-guilt-wracked-men-who-werent-drafted-in-us-wars/609484.md?page=4)