# Accused killers of TG teen use "trans-panic" defense- Are panic defenses legitimate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204 "2004-05-26T17:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/1 "2004-05-26T17:07:15Z")
Isn’t this just a variant of the “temporary insanity” defense that regularly gets kicked out? Why should “transgender panic” be accorded more weight legally, psychologically or morally than “I just went nuts”? [Expert backs ‘panic’ defense - Sex with transgender teen might prompt partners to ‘flip out’](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/25/BAGMH6RBQK1.DTL) > [@](#): > > An immature, heterosexual young man who learns that a woman he was sexually intimate with is biologically male is likely to “panic” and overreact with violence, a psychologist told a Hayward jury Monday in the trial of three men accused of killing transgender teen Gwen Araujo. > > “It would flip them out,” said Andrew Pojman, a Walnut Creek psychologist who teaches at the Wright Institute in Berkeley. “They’d have a strong sense of panic and uproar and wanting to fix it. It would be very upsetting.” > > Monday’s testimony was the most direct yet to address what transgender advocates have decried as a biased “trans-panic” defense in the case – that Araujo’s slaying was not murder but manslaughter, a crime of passion fueled by the young men’s shock and anger at having been “duped” into having sex with a transgender youth. > > Pojman, an expert in adolescent group psychotherapy, said that such a violent reaction – fueled by anger, shame and alcohol – would be intensified if such a discovery were made by an “unhealthy” group of young male friends. > > “It would be a double dose. There would be a sense of betrayal that the person was not who they said they were,” he said. “You have the shame of the individual plus the shame of having my buddies know that I did this.” > > Michael Magidson, 24, of Fremont and Jose Merel and Jason Cazares, both 24 and from Newark, are charged with murder and a hate crime in the killing Araujo. > > The 17-year-old Araujo, who was born Edward Araujo but lived as a young woman, allegedly was beaten and strangled after the men learned she was biologically male at a party on Oct. 3, 2002 ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/2 "2004-05-26T17:19:57Z")
I would say about as legitimate as a Twenky defense. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/3 "2004-05-26T19:38:54Z")
A panic situation doesn’t fit with the particulars of the murder. Araujo was removed from the scene of the party and killed some time after the “discovery”. When a female at the party asked what happened, the suspect said something along the lines of “Let’s just say he took the long way home”. Sounds pretty calculated and cold blooded for me. I hope to God that this doesn’t work out. I can’t imagine it being officially okay to kill trans people if they freak you out. I already know enough people who live in fear everyday because they know that being simply being transgendered can end up with them getting beat up or killed. I can’t imagine how this would affect them. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/4 "2004-05-26T19:49:05Z")
It makes less sense than somebody killing a male transvestite who gave him a blowjob. Which is not much sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/5 "2004-05-26T19:56:32Z")
The short answer is that if the jury buys it, then it’s legitimate. The jury is the finder of fact. If they find that the accused suffered from a reaction that diminished his capacity to understand or appreciate what he was doing, then manslaughter is the appropriate charge. This is a bit different from the generic “temporary insanity” business that gets bandied about in popular press, in which an accused is seeking a full not-guilty-by-reason-of- verdict. In this case, the accused’s defense is that this “panic” negated the intent required for a murder conviction, but not the general intent required for a manslaugter conviction. It’s more buyable to me than the “Twinky defense,” but not by a heck of a lot. While I can understand reactions such as anger or even shame at finding yourself in such a situation, I cannot comprehend how it might lead to loss of such control as to cause you to kill. Of course, I didn’t hear the expert testify. Perhaps it would be mnore understandable if I had. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/6 "2004-05-26T22:42:48Z")
That ‘disorder’ can be easily cured by playing ‘Lola’ repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/7 "2004-05-27T00:21:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The short answer is that if the jury buys it, then it’s legitimate. That seems to be what the defense is going for in this case. All they need is one juror to sympathize with the argument – the defendants have been charged in the alternative, and it’s not very likely that the jury will fail to find them guilty on the manslaughter charge or the hate crime charge. This is a strategy to avoid the death penalty, not one to avoid conviction, as even a conviction on manslaughter is likely to lead to a long prison term. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/8 "2004-05-27T01:13:20Z")
I think the gay panic defense is basically just a contrivance for potentially homophobic jurors to hang an acquittal on or at least get some idiot to hang the jury. IMO, it’s a subtle way to argue that the victim deserved it without coming out and saying so. All you need is one trogolodyte juror to buy it and you stop a murder conviction. Personally, I hope these scumbags are convicted and sent to a joint where they will _really_ learn the meaning of gay panic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/9 "2004-05-27T01:33:52Z")
Like **even sven** , this story is close to home for me-- just across the bay in the same metropolitan area. I have no doubt these guys panicked when they found out that “Gwen” was really a guy. But there are many, many ways of dealing with that reaction other than killing the young man. This seems more like a _post hoc_ rationalization rather than a legitimate defense. I think **DtC** is pretty much on the mark. The defense is trying to have the jurors think: “how would you feel if you found out the girl you messed around with was actually a guy”? This was a brutal murder that was covered up, and the guilty men should suffer the full weight of the law in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/10 "2004-05-27T01:43:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But there are many, many ways of dealing with that reaction other than killing the young man. Ther young _lady_–please, let’s at least give the poor girl that much. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/11 "2004-05-27T04:57:37Z")
Sounds like these three dudes were a bunch of losers. Using someone for sexual pleasure outside of a relationship, then getting pissed over the freebie they got and going back to demand death for satisfaction. No honor, no guts–premeditation and complete scumbaggery. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/12 "2004-05-27T12:32:57Z")
Oh, I think we can dispose of the trans panic defense with a little word substitution: Republican panic defense mild bondage panic defense postal panic defense furry panic defense cheese panic defense Any jury that buys this has shit for brains. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/13 "2004-05-27T12:56:19Z")
> [@MrTuffPaws](#): > > I would say about as legitimate as a Twenky defense. What is a Twenky Defense? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/14 "2004-05-27T12:59:56Z")
When Matthew (sorry…I forgot his last name) was hung on that fence to die, I believe they used the “panic defense” to keep their sorry asses from rotting in jail. Although it wasn’t a “trans” case, it was basically the same thing. It didn’t fly. However, as someone said earlier, if an attorney can get the jury to buy it, it will stand. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/15 "2004-05-27T13:16:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > What is a Twenky Defense? AKA the [“Twinkie Defense”](http://www.ohnonews.com/twinkie.html) ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/16 "2004-05-27T13:57:14Z")
My problem is more with the whole ‘crime of passion’ argument in general than this particular example. Otara ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/17 "2004-05-28T19:28:23Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It makes less sense than somebody killing a male transvestite who gave him a blowjob. > > Which is not much sense at all. From all I’ve read, the victim was a transexual not a transvestite. A transvestite may at times dress in the clothing of the opposite gender (I ain’t thrilled with the phrase opposite gender either, but that’s a whole other thread), but they identify as and are quite happy with the gender on their birth certificate. A transexual dresses as the gender they feel themselves to be, rather than the gender dictated by external anatomy or the birth certificate. IANAL What are the standards (if any) for crimes of passion? They found out. Then, made and executed a plan with malice aforethought. That would seem to be the classic definition of murder. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/18 "2004-06-23T04:36:36Z")
Update: A [mistrial has been declared](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/a/2004/06/22/mistrial22.DTL) in this case. It seems that at least some of the jurors were buying the “transgender panic” defense. The prosecutor is promising to retry the case. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/19 "2004-06-23T06:20:46Z")
If I were intimate with a woman and I found out later she was biologically a male I’d be pretty upset. I might feel anger and humilation and those emotions might be compounded if some of my peers knew we had slept together. As a juror it would be my responsibility to take into account the state of mind of the defendants. I don’t know how similiar this is to gay panic defenses. I’ve never heard of a gay panic defense used because a heterosexual man unknowingly had sex with another man. I’ve only heard it used in conjunction with bashing in response to passes or flirtatious behavior. That’s pretty easy for me to dismiss because the level of intimacy is a lot lower then someone who you just had sex with. Is there any difference between this murder and the murder of someone simply becaues they were transgendered? Marc ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204/20 "2004-06-23T06:23:27Z")
From one of the journalist who has been covering the trial, it appears that they didn’t buy it. > [@](#): > > what i want to put out there right now–what the media may not report immediately–is that the jurors were deadlocked on murder 1 vs. murder 2. that means the jury AGREED this was murder. > > the jury REJECTED manslaughter… > **[Gwen Araujo trial](https://ftm.livejournal.com/1503364.html)** > > just a quick note -- there was a mistrial declared in the araujo trial...the jury could not come to a unanimous verdict. what i want to put out there right now--what the media may not report immediately--is that the jurors were deadlocked on murder 1... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accused-killers-of-tg-teen-use-trans-panic-defense-are-panic-defenses-legitimate/247204.md?page=2)