# Accusing a Group of Malice in GD **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 22, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062 "2024-08-22T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/61 "2024-08-23T00:12:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > A desire to harm others or to see others suffer Like, for example, denying them rights? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/62 "2024-08-23T00:17:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Should the entire board change the policy on behalf of a group of people based on your claims of your own personal feelings I don’t see it as a change in policy. > [@I disagree \[about the moderation of this post in Elections\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-disagree-about-the-moderation-of-this-post-in-elections/770279/6): > > Should you believe someone is being disingenuous or arguing in bad faith you have several options. You may report their post and make the argument that they are arguing in bad faith or trolling for effect. You may also start a BBQ Pit thread about them and take them to task there with a politely worded post that points out you have done so. > > You may even choose to ignore them as a waste of time and disengage from the thread. > > What you do not get to do is spend several posts over the course of three days continually attacking another poster’s character and truthfulness. Such things aren’t really allowed in either Great Debates or Elections and you’ve been around long enough to know this. Which is exactly what would happen if I hijacked that thread to argue at length how _I, at least, am not motivated by ill intent_. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/63 "2024-08-23T00:23:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Which is exactly what would happen if I hijacked that thread to argue at length how _I, at least, am not motivated by ill intent_. I wouldn’t consider clarifying your motivations to be a hijack. You’re entitled to do that. However, if the discussion devolved into only that, then I would consider the discussion pointless. You and whoever was engaging in a protracted back and forth would be directed to move on, having stated your positions. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/64 "2024-08-23T00:29:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Ok…you are part of a group that wants to separate children from their parents if they are illegal immigrants. Quite possibly forever. > > What non-malicious and supportable reason is there for that? Or even better. Some people think they should spank young children. It would be wildly inappropriate in a _ **debate** _, the topic of which is why do some people who spank their children do it, for a participant to accuse spankers as “always” harboring ill will toward their children. To appropriate **Der\_Trihs** ’s words, it would be inappropriate in GD to say they do it “to demonize” the children, that with spankers “it’s _always_ about malice; ‘the cruelty is the point’”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/65 "2024-08-23T00:33:48Z")
Or even better, you could answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/66 "2024-08-23T00:43:49Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Then let’s substitute the word, ‘harmful,’ for ‘malicious.’ You want to do unintentional harm to a bunch of people and not be called out for it because you don’t _intend_ to harm them. No, I don’t feel that is a distinction being made. If it was, I wouldn’t feel insulted and we wouldn’t have this thread. **Stratocaster** was explicit but even so, the implication in-thread is very clear to me: that I intend to do harm and even prefer it, by virtue of my opinion that being gay is a lifestyle choice, therefore I am malicious, vile, evil, &etc and actively wish harm on gay people. Regardless of the reasons I might state for my opinion, they do not think I can be convinced otherwise, I do not think others are interested in me defending myself, and frankly I don’t think I should have to. It would be a waste of time, distract from the topic, and further evidence (in the minds of some) that I am more trouble than I’m worth. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/67 "2024-08-23T00:53:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or even better, you could answer the question. Noting that “this is the wrong thread to get into these debates”, I can’t think of any situation where I support separating children from the parents because of immigration status. I don’t think most people even among conservatives support that. I would in some cases ‘support’ deporting the parent of a child who happens to be U.S. citizen, and those are two different positions because the parent can take the child with them. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/68 "2024-08-23T00:57:06Z")
The point is you identify with a group which is provably and actively malicious towards LGBTQ+ people. Maybe you personally have no malice but you are ok being part of a group that absolutely does have malice. It’s hard to split-hairs on that one and make the distinction you seem to want when you support that group and work to see their vision be reality. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/69 "2024-08-23T01:00:08Z")
So “conservatives” is a group defined by ideology. It’s not like something you _entirely_ choose to associate with or distance yourself from based on other individuals in the group. It’s not like Democrats or Republicans. (Although I am a Republican, that is _only_ for access in the primaries in my state). My views make me conservative whether I acknowledge it or not. I could stop being conservative, but then I would have to change my views, for example on whether being gay is a lifestyle choice. So in that sense, the insult is directed personally at virtually everybody who takes the contra position in that debate. To limit the insult to most conservatives but not me, sort of defeats the point of making it - especially as a reply to my post. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/70 "2024-08-23T01:07:41Z")
Does this argument work on any conservative and/or Republican message boards you might happen to visit, when a liberal and/or Democrat raises the issue? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/71 "2024-08-23T01:12:12Z")
I am not familiar with any conservative and/or Republican message boards. And besides… what does that matter? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/72 "2024-08-23T01:38:43Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I wouldn’t consider clarifying your motivations to be a hijack. You’re entitled to do that. I should also think I’m entitled to participate in a debate on whether conservatives think being gay is a choice, and if so what they think the benefits of being gay are, without having the debate interrupted with accusations that conservatives are vile and hate gay people. Who would agree to such a thing? What kind of #Great Debates are you defending here? There’s a thread on book banning in Utah. Say someone went in an tried to explain why they support the bans of these particular books. Would it be acceptable to respond with, oh, people who support book banning are _really_ motivated by hatred for women? Who in their right mind would return to that thread and defend the book ban? There’s a thread on the Mormon Church and transgender people. Say someone, a Mormon, tried to explain why their faith requires these new restrictions. And the response to that post doesn’t address the explanation at all. It says, Mormons _really_ just want to hurt transgender people, they really just want to see them kill themselves and die. That’s the real goal. Is that appropriate for GD? Who in their right mind would ever return and try and defend the Mormons here again? There’s a thread (that I started) about whether DEI is good or bad. Suppose someone came in and patiently explained why they believe some aspects of DEI are neutral or even bad (which happened). Now suppose the response is, people who say DEI is bad are _really_ motivated by hatred of women and Black people. Which _almost actually happened_ in that thread. **GIGOBuster** , whose contributions in that thread (and others) I value very much, made a similar point about “the right” almost every post. But he did so in a way that I think did not impugn the people he was discussing with in-thread. He addressed points directed at him and there was a lot of respectful back and forth. Even so I was legitimately concerned it would derail the thread and took affirmative steps to steer the conversation away from the motives of “the right”. Note that nobody responded to those accusations directly. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/73 "2024-08-23T01:47:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I should also think I’m entitled to participate in a debate on why conservatives think being gay is a choice, without having the debate interrupted with accusations that conservatives are vile and hate gay people. Who would agree to such a thing? Imagine some heinous act and then someone says they want to debate in a calm manner why that is reasonable (or not) without any accusations of them being vile for supporting it. (I can come up with lots of hypotheticals for this but I hope I do not have to…I am sure you can conjure some up too.) Would that be ok with you? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/74 "2024-08-23T01:50:30Z")
Yes, as a matter of fact it would. If this was a popular opinion which actually has an effect on things. If I respect the person, I should add. I would try very hard to understand their point of view top to bottom. That’s what debates are for. If for whatever reason I just couldn’t do it without insulting them, then I would turn down the request. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/75 "2024-08-23T01:54:36Z")
Max. Dear Max. Quit digging; you’re 30 feet deep already and getting farther down with every post. You’re in effect advocating for a rule that every thread involving the currently Fascist Right of the USA be forced directly to the Pit. If you’re unhappy now, just wait until you see the consequences of what you’re advocating. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/76 "2024-08-23T01:55:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Yes, as a matter of fact it would. And this is why you’re never going to understand or agree with the rest of us on this. That just isn’t a normal view. It prioritizes your desire to discuss something over the impact to the people being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/77 "2024-08-23T01:57:28Z")
If the impact of the people being discussed is of greater importance, we should simply ban advocacy that harms them outright. That’s analogous to turning down the offer to debate. [Like I said](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/66) about the rules concerning debate on transgender identity. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/78 "2024-08-23T02:37:24Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I have no idea what @Max_S’ ‘non-malicious’ arguments against same sex marriage are, and since the poster hasn’t stated them we can only guess at his motivations, but as far as religious objections go dressing up such objections in pious trappings of cherry-picked Bible quotations doesn’t make them any less hateful, particularly given the deliberate effort such people make to avoid applying the general tenets of the eponymous figure of the Christian of tolerance and acceptance in this one particular case. I’ll also note that during the debate over same sex marriage, here and elsewhere there was the constant insistence that such non-malicious, non-bigoted reason to oppose SSM existed, that it _must_ exist…but none of the people doing so ever provided such a reason. Not here, not on other forums, not in court, nowhere. Claiming that a non-malicious reason to do or support something exists while failing to come up with even a hypothetical example is at best highly disingenuous. It’s not an argument, it’s claiming that an argument exists without providing it, then condemning everyone else for not accepting it on faith. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/79 "2024-08-23T02:49:54Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I have no idea what @Max_S’ ‘non-malicious’ arguments against same sex marriage are, and since the poster hasn’t stated them we can only guess at his motivations But I [have](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-conservatives-obsessed-with-same-sex-marriage/916156/87) stated [my opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-conservatives-obsessed-with-same-sex-marriage/916156/92?username_filters=max_s) on that exact question. See also [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-we-need-a-constitutional-amendment-guaranteeing-marriage-reproductive-rights/974014/59), [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-air-force-is-unconstitutional/947441/179), [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-ninth-amendment-to-the-united-states-constitution-itself-protect-individuals-from-state-infringement-of-unenumerated-rights/922125), [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/substantive-due-process/914993), the list goes on. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2024, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062/80 "2024-08-23T02:56:17Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If the impact of the people being discussed is of greater importance, we should simply ban advocacy that harms them outright. You seem incredulous that this should be so. Interesting. You can’t seem to grasp that some issues are simply not debatable to decent people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accusing-a-group-of-malice-in-gd/1006062.md?page=5)