# Achieving Ukrainian victory while not getting into a nuclear war **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755 "2022-03-09T16:19:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/21 "2022-03-10T21:26:24Z")
Are you discussing war or politics? I do not recall the Soviets/Russians getting into a war with Estonia or East Germany or Poland and I do not consider them fighting Germans in those places in WWII as them being at war with any of them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/22 "2022-03-10T21:39:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not recall the Soviets/Russians getting into a war with Estonia or East Germany or Poland and I do not consider them fighting Germans in those places in WWII as them being at war with any of them. Well, the Soviets did invade Poland and Hungary when both countries rebelled in the 50’s. It wasn’t a war, per se, but it was certainly an invasion. I don’t think they ever had to do that in the Baltic states, but mainly because they had overwhelming military force there already. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/23 "2022-03-10T21:58:35Z")
I would not call those a war. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/24 "2022-03-10T21:59:53Z")
Of course, this isn’t either, especially if you believe Russia (and China). It’s just a special military operation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/25 "2022-03-10T22:01:58Z")
Neither Russia or Ukraine will be winning. Russia will get bogged down, already now to suffer huge economic harms, and having no non humiliating way to leave but not succeeding at bringing Ukraine into their orbit. They can keep it broken maybe but doing even that will be costly in troops and treasure and now committed to costs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/26 "2022-03-10T22:02:53Z")
You don’t consider Russians fighting Germans in Germany as being “at war” with Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/27 "2022-03-10T22:26:39Z")
Russia has already lost. That’s not the question. The question is how to stop Ukraine from losing. The great thing about war is that it’s quite possible for everyone to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/28 "2022-03-10T22:43:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You don’t consider Russians fighting Germans in Germany as being “at war” with Germany? Of course I do. I do not consider Russians fighting Germans in Estonia as Russians at war with Estonia. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/29 "2022-03-10T22:47:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not consider Russians fighting Germans in Estonia as Russians at war with Estonia. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not recall the Soviets/Russians getting into a war with Estonia or **East Germany** or Poland and I do not consider them fighting Germans in those places in WWII as them being at war with any of them. I think at least one of us is confused. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/30 "2022-03-10T23:03:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think at least one of us is confused. When was Russia and/or the Soviets at war with **East Germany**? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/31 "2022-03-10T23:04:45Z")
Do you understand how East Germany was created? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/32 "2022-03-10T23:05:55Z")
Yes. Again, when was Russia/Soviets at war with **East Germany**? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/33 "2022-03-10T23:08:57Z")
When they created East Germany. Next question? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/34 "2022-03-10T23:09:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again, when was Russia/Soviets at war with **East Germany**? Between 1941 and 1945, when it was still a part of Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/35 "2022-03-10T23:12:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When they created East Germany. > > Next question? > [@Miller](#): > > Between 1941 and 1945, when it was still a part of Germany. You guys realize that [East Germany was not a country until 1949 right?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany) You also realize that [WWII ended in 1945?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) I am not great at math but that one is easy. What are you arguing? That Soviets moved through eastern parts of Germany in WWII? When was the war with Russia and/or Soviets and **East Germany**? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/36 "2022-03-10T23:29:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You guys realize that [East Germany was not a country until 1949 right?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany) And how did it become a country? It lost a war with the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/37 "2022-03-10T23:30:20Z")
East Germany never, ever lost a war with the USSR. That’s a fact. I think you are using different definitions. I am not tracking what you mean to say here. Germany and East Germany are different things. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/38 "2022-03-10T23:34:14Z")
Germany lost a war with Russia, and as a result, the part of it that lost the war with Russia became East Germany. Other parts that lost a war with the US, France, and the UK became West Germany. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/39 "2022-03-10T23:39:41Z")
It wasn’t…that’s why I didn’t mention EAST Germany, as I figured that’s the hair you were splitting. True enough…when the USSR imposed East Germany on the territory they controlled after WWII they never did have to invade again to put down a major rebellion. Of course, they were still there for the occupation until they pulled out just before their empire dissolved, but certainly they didn’t have to go to ‘war’. Poland and Hungary, however, are much more nebulous and hinge on your definition of ‘war’…I’d say that putting down a rebellion (there was the whole crushing a popular uprising in Berlin, but that probably doesn’t count…plus, they were there already, so it’s all good), especially how they did it is pretty close to what most would consider ‘war’. But it’s all hair splitting in the end. Like I said, Russia doesn’t consider this to be a war either, and there are plenty of people and several prominent countries that agree with them over this splitting of hairs. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755/40 "2022-03-10T23:41:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Germany lost a war with Russia, and as a result, the part of it that lost the war with Russia became East Germany. All of Germany lost the war. Germany was partitioned in the post-war era and the USSR kept their part and formed the puppet state of East Germany (the rest backed away and let Germany be a country again). Puppet state or not East Germany was a real country. Earlier the claim was made that Russia fought Poland and Estonia and East Germany. When did those wars happen? Blazing through eastern Europe in WWII vs the Germans is not them fighting Poland or Estonia or East Germany. It is the Soviets fighting Germany. And, weirdly, people here keep arguing that the Soviets fought East Germany when it was the Soviets who created East Germany. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/achieving-ukrainian-victory-while-not-getting-into-a-nuclear-war/960755.md?page=3)