# ACLU filing class action lawsuit over “no fly” list **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555 "2004-04-06T15:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/1 "2004-04-06T15:03:38Z")
It was pretty inevitable: “ACLU to sue U.S. over ‘no-fly’ list that bars travelers” [http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/06/no.fly.lawsuit.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/06/no.fly.lawsuit.ap/index.html) ACLU press release: > **[National Security](https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security?redirect=cfmredirect%2FSafeandFree&ID=13193&c=206)** > > Our Constitution, laws, and values are the foundation of our strength and security. Yet, after the attacks of September 11, 2001, our government engaged in systematic policies of torture, targeted killing, indefinite detention, mass surveillance, and... Basically, the criteria for the list, which subjects some passengers to additional security measures before they are allowed to board airplanes and bars some from boarding entirely, are secret. That bothers me, but I understand there may be legitimate security reasons for keeping screening criteria secret. However, according to the ACLU suit and press release, · “TSA lacks protocols for ensuring that First Amendment-protected activity is not a reason for an individual being placed on the “no fly” list; · TSA does not track how many times individuals are incorrectly stopped because of the “no fly” list, stating that there is “no pressing need to do so;” · TSA appears to have no instructions for airlines on how to respond to “no fly” list matches; and · TSA appears to provide no guidance to state and local law enforcement about the “no fly” list. “ More ACLU documents on the lawsuit: > **[National Security](https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security?redirect=cfmredirect%2FSafeandFree&ID=12740&c=)** > > Our Constitution, laws, and values are the foundation of our strength and security. Yet, after the attacks of September 11, 2001, our government engaged in systematic policies of torture, targeted killing, indefinite detention, mass surveillance, and... Is the “no-fly list,” in its current incarnation, the best response to airline security problems? Why, or why not? If you could change the list, what would you change, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/2 "2004-04-06T15:28:05Z")
As a matter of interest: I wonder why I don’t recollect reading someone who fell foul of the no-fly list suing the U.S. government in order to be taken off. Or are people who are refused transport not told the reason? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/3 "2004-04-06T15:46:50Z")
I can’t imagine how the airline (or the TSA, whoever does the dirty work in this situation) not allowing a ticketed passenger to board a plane without giving any explanation at all. ---
**Author:** ![BurntToast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BurntToast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BurntToast)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/4 "2004-04-06T16:19:24Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > I can’t imagine how the airline (or the TSA, whoever does the dirty work in this situation) not allowing a ticketed passenger to board a plane without giving any explanation at all. I can’t imagine how the goverment is saying people who have done NOTHING can’t get on a plane at all, ever, just becase they MIGHT be a terrorist. It seems to me anyone at all might be a terrorist so maybe no one should be allowed on planes? I am assuming people who have done nothing are included on ‘The list’ becase it seems if it was only people who were already wanted then they woulden’t need a whole special list and everything. How you get on the list is, afaik, secret though so I may be wrong I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/5 "2004-04-06T16:36:50Z")
**BurntToast,** previous articles have indicated one can get on the list for anything from commission of a felony (type and degree as far unspecified) to “suspicious” political activity. Part of the lawsuit is because the ACLU would like some procedure in place to ensure that people are not barred from boarding airplanes for activity that would normally be protected under the First Amendment, and to ensure there is some logical correlation between would-be travelers’ prior activities and their ability to travel in the future. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/6 "2004-04-06T17:11:49Z")
The real problem, as I see it, is that the criteria for inclusion on this list are undisclosed. How to you get on the list? How do you get off? No-one knows. All the TSA will say is that the list was compiled from a variety of law enforcement and intelligence sources. From various news stories, the compilation of this list also appears to have originally been haphazard and rushed. I have seen stories about people with no terror ties appearing on the list evidently because of political activity (e.g., state chairpersons for the Green Party). There are also stories of people on the list because of what appears to be typographical errors (I can imagine the scenario: “Was that Al-Pharzad or Al-Pharad?” “I don’t know, list them both.”) The list is a crude instrument, and anti-American in nature. Like many other hasty responses to 9/11, it seems to have little effect on protecting Americans in general, while having negative effect on individual Americans and on constitutional freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/7 "2004-04-06T19:37:34Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t interstate travel a fundamental right under the U.S. constitution? If so, this secret list business is right out. You cannot reasonably argue that denying someone the right to fly does not seriously affect the right to travel. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/8 "2004-04-06T20:05:36Z")
Is it true that one of the “suspected political activities” that will get you on the list is buying a copy of Richard Clarke’s new book? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/9 "2004-04-06T20:13:53Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Is it true that one of the “suspected political activities” that will get you on the list is buying a copy of Richard Clarke’s new book? 😉 Well, if I were you, I’d pay cash. 😉 Seriously, though, both my mom and I are U.S.-born, relatively white people with no criminal records (I don’t even have any moving violations). I’ve even passed a Federal background investigation. We are both active in liberal politics, especially anti-war politics. We both buy our tickets round-trip, well in advance, with a credit card in our own names. And we are both searched on nearly every flight we board. I’m really having a hard time this is all according to the laws of probability. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-filing-class-action-lawsuit-over-no-fly-list/238555/10 "2004-04-07T12:16:45Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > And we are both searched on nearly every flight we board. I’m really having a hard time this is all according to the laws of probability. Hint: lose the head scarves. 😃