# ACLU - Good and Bad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924 "2005-10-05T17:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/101 "2005-10-06T21:00:00Z")
Carefully, young grassshopa. First you must know the way of the republican. Liberals and their allies are always wrong. From that follows everything, including the ability to make words and phrases applies only to those you wish them to apply to. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/102 "2005-10-06T21:01:48Z")
Good list, **What the**. I’m an atheist, and I was shaking my head at the stupidity of most of those instances of ACLU action. It sucks that the ACLU has to force secularism down peoples throats as your list shows. This just serves to alienate us who are non-believers even more. The ultimate irony is that even more religion ends up being shoved down my throat because they rightly feel threatened by these attacks on their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/103 "2005-10-06T21:03:21Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’d be quite insulted by that label, because it’s not true. Any reasonable person realizes that myself, the Republican party and the current administration is not “anti-American”. (Opinions of far-left message board posters being the exception, of course.) It’s every bit as true as your label for the ACLU, as any reasonable person can realize. > [@](#): > > When any of us propose putting US soldiers and citizens in harms way for no good reason except to release a bunch of photos that don’t contain any new information and only serve to inflame opinions against the US then you can go ahead and call us whatever you like. 😃 So, I can call George Bush anti-American for starting the war in Iraq? That involved putting quite a few US soldiers and citizens in harms way for no good reason, as far as I care. Sure you _say_ you have good reasons. But why should I pay any more attention to your reasons for going to war in Iraq, than you have paid to the reasons for publishing the photos of torture victims? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/104 "2005-10-06T21:07:26Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The US civil liberties only apply to American citizens, not to terrorists that we are at war with. Do you seriously suggest that before entering a house in Iraq that our soldiers need get a warrant first? Or that terrorists captured on the battlefield are entitled to Miranda rights? > [@The Bill of Rights](#): > > …the right of the **people** peaceably to assemble… the right of the **people** to keep and bear arms… The right of the **people** to be secure in their persons…No **person** shall be held to answer…the **accused** shall enjoy the right…others retained by the **people** … The word “citizen” doesn’t even _appear_ in the Bill of Rights. It’s disturbing that you would say they only apply to citizens. Obviously, the rules of war are different, but the ACLU isn’t talking about requiring warrants for soldiers, they’re talking about releasing information. It’s an issue of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/105 "2005-10-06T21:16:16Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > First you must know the way of the republican. Liberals and their allies are always wrong. I’m not a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/106 "2005-10-06T21:19:22Z")
Did I say you were? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/107 "2005-10-06T21:28:01Z")
Well, **What the ?!?** , I refuse to believe that any of those headlines from your last post are accurate representations of what the ACLU is doing until you provide links to the headlines in question. At this point in the thread you have made many slanderous accusations against the ACLU. When asked to proof your accusations, you simply ignored the requests. When a newbie acts like that, their credibility tends to drop like a rock, as it were. (I will mention, while we’re at it, that choosing a respectable username does wonders as well.) Good day. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/108 "2005-10-06T21:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The word “citizen” doesn’t even appear in the Bill of Rights. It’s disturbing that you would say they only apply to citizens. Who do you think the founders were talking about when they said “people”? They obviously meant citizens. > [@](#): > > Obviously, the rules of war are different, That was my point. If we grant the people who are trying to kill us the same rights that we have as citizens then we don’t stand a chance. Also, I don’t think it’s so obvious at all. Many people seem to make the argument that we should be giving rights to them just as we would to any US citizen. > [@](#): > > but the ACLU isn’t talking about requiring warrants for soldiers, they’re talking about releasing information. Ah, but you’ve already admitted that the rules of war are different. If we don’t need to require warrants, why should we be required to release information? Do we need to release information on troop movements as well? How about plans for future attacks? You are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, and stating it as if everyone should agree with where you’ve placed it. > [@](#): > > It’s an issue of free speech. No. It’s not. Who’s speech is being blocked? The government classifies information all the time, and it’s not a free speech issue. It’s amazing that people can see no free speech issues with McCain Feingold and instead see first ammendment issues in the release of valueless, harmful photos. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/109 "2005-10-06T21:29:14Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > Here’s a list of headlines re the ACLU position on freedom of religion vs the freedom to not be offended by somebody else’s religion: That’s bullshit, of course. All these things are about not having the government endorse a particular religion. Do you have any examples of the ACLU objecting to a sign on a church? That could well be offensive, but is protected. I think I might join the ACLU after this to help protect the country from you incipient theocrats. Let’s look at a few examples. > [@](#): > > 9/14/2005 ACLU Threat Removes 23rd Psalm from Courthouse > The 23rd Psalm display which stood at the Oglethorpe County Courthouse in Lexington, Georgia, has been removed amidst the threat of a lawsuit from the ACLU. The Georgia chapter of America’s so-called protector of all freedoms called the display essentially the same as a Ten Commandments display. What exactly does the 23rd Psalm have to do with law? Is it referred to by the Constitution? > [@](#): > > * * * > > 8/11/2005 ACLU Sues to Stop County Commission Prayers > The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has filed a federal lawsuit against the Cobb County (Ga.) Commission, demanding that the county bar overtly Christian prayers. And your problem with this is? These people are servants of the people, all the people, and not just Christians. They can make an effort to act that way. > [@](#): > > * * * > > 7/29/2005 ACLU Seeks Non-Christian Texts for Courtroom Oaths > The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a federal lawsuit against the state of North Carolina to force state and county courts to provide alternative texts for witnesses who refuse to swear an oath on the Holy Bible. Do you actually object to this? Should a Hindu have to swear on a Holy Bible? Does doing so make it okay for him to lie? I can’t believe they don’t do this already. In California, when I got sworn in for jury duty, we swore to the state, as appropriate, not to any gods. Have you even bothered to read the glurge you cut and pasted? You are aware, right, that the issue with abstinence only sex education is the only part. I don’t know of anyone proposing not to say that abstinence is best. What they want to add is education about disease prevention and birth control methods just in case. The free speech part is the government saying that schools cannot give out this information. Get it now? You might have a case (but probably not) if abstinence only education was shown to be effective, but it isn’t. More pregnancies -\> more abortions. Are you pro-abortion? I’m pro-choice, but feel abortions should be a last resort, and good birth control the first. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/110 "2005-10-06T21:40:28Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > Here’s a list of headlines re the ACLU position on freedom of religion vs the freedom to not be offended by somebody else’s religion: First off, could you provide link(s)? Gah, that list has to be in one of the most unreadable, resistant to response formats you could choose. Thanks. Now, a comment on the ones I did make it through. You do realize it has nothing to do with “freedom to not be offended by somebody else’s religion”, don’t you? I think you’ve overdosed on _The O’Reilly Factor_. Step away from the glurge and hopefully no one else will get hurt. As an exercise to prove that a response isn’t a total waste of my time, I’ll leave it to you to identify the overriding concern in these cases. Although I have to admit, I’m intrigued by this: > [@](#): > > 1/31/2005 ACLU Omits Religion From Constitution Tutorial > The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) — often criticized for infringing on America’s free expression of religion — has been caught red-handed attempting to edit the First Amendment on its own website. Specifically, the organization’s website omitted any mention of religion in its discussion on the First Amendment. I’d _really_ like to read about that one. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/111 "2005-10-06T21:46:42Z")
Oh, and – hey **Voyager**. Glad to see you back. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/112 "2005-10-06T21:47:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Who do you think the founders were talking about when they said “people”? They obviously meant citizens. Then why didn’t they say, “citizens?” Incidentally, do you think that a person living in the United States, but who retains their (let’s say) British citizenship, does not have the right to free speech? Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure? Freedom of religion? Can the government grab a French citizen residing in the US and lock him up without a trial? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/113 "2005-10-06T22:00:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > These pictures will be used by our enemies and is likely to result in the deaths of American citizens and soldiers. They are either too stupid to realize this or have a belief system so twisted that they don’t care about it. In either case, this makes their position on this issue anti-American and shameful. ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.’ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/114 "2005-10-06T22:18:22Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > Here’s a list of headlines re the ACLU position on freedom of religion vs the freedom to not be offended by somebody else’s religion: My, but it’s interesting where those headlines come from… > [@](#): > > 9/14/2005 ACLU Threat Removes 23rd Psalm from Courthouse > The 23rd Psalm display which stood at the Oglethorpe County Courthouse in Lexington, Georgia, has been removed amidst the threat of a lawsuit from the ACLU. The Georgia chapter of America’s so-called protector of all freedoms called the display essentially the same as a Ten Commandments display. [Link](http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=2874) from [reclaimamerica.org](http://reclaimamerica.org), a James Kennedy ministry. In other words, an organization whose sole purpose is to shove Christianity down the throats of every American and make them LIKE it! Highly suspect, in any case, and not exactly unbiased. > [@](#): > > 8/16/2005 ACLU Compares Praying Christians to Terrorists > After members of the Tangipahoa Parish (La.) School Board hosted a conference to discuss religious liberties in the public schools, an ACLU spokesman compared the board members seeking to pray at meetings to “the people who flew the airplanes into the buildings in this country.” Okay, Google finally vomited up the digest page that all of these came from, rather than searching for the individual headlines pages… [Reclaim America ACLU Stories Archive](http://www.reclaimamerica.org/Pages/ACLU/StoryArchives.asp). 'Cause, y’know, they don’t have a major holy hard-on for that organization or anything. **What the…?!** , cites as biased as this site are absolutely worthless as evidence of the “bad” that the ACLU does. Most of what’s listed here I (and many others) consider to be the “good” that the ACLU does. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/115 "2005-10-06T23:27:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > **What the…?!** , cites as biased as this site are absolutely worthless as evidence of the “bad” that the ACLU does. True, but the cites are useful to those who want to paint the ACLU as simply against religion, when the audience is one that cannot see or does not want to see the distinction between “against religion” and “against religion in the government”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/116 "2005-10-06T23:55:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Who do you think the founders were talking about when they said “people”? They obviously meant citizens. . . . The kindest thing I can say about that is that the courts have never held any provision of the Bill of Rights to apply to U.S. citizens only. In fact, so far as I know, there are only two groups of legal rights or privileges of U.S. citizens that noncitizens do not have: Political participation (voting, holding office) and residence on U.S. soil. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/117 "2005-10-07T00:00:38Z")
For the record, I’m not very religious at all. But for some reason I sympathise with those Christians who do want to be able to say a prayer at graduation, etc. I don’t defend those who want to force Christianity on anybody and I’ll grant you that they are out there, Has the ACLU ever defended a Christian’s right to any religious action in any way related to a public event? I know that sounds way too general but you probably know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/118 "2005-10-07T00:19:13Z")
> [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > For the record, I’m not very religious at all. But for some reason I sympathise with those Christians who do want to be able to say a prayer at graduation, etc. > > I don’t defend those who want to force Christianity on anybody and I’ll grant you that they are out there, > > Has the ACLU ever defended a Christian’s right to any religious action in any way related to a public event? I know that sounds way too general but you probably know what I mean. :dubious: You know if you are curious about the ACLU you could check their website: [www.aclu.org](http://www.aclu.org). Right up front of the middle page is a picture with the words Freedom, Belief and Religious Liberty. A few clicks later you get to [this](http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17598&c=38) page with the following list: December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors. December 14, 2004: ACLU joins Pennsylvania parents in filing first-ever challenge to “Intelligent Design” instruction in public schools. November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas. November 12, 2004: ACLU of Georgia files a lawsuit on behalf of parents challenging evolution disclaimers in science textbooks. November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school. August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln. July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets. June 9, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska files a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim woman barred from a public pool because she refused to wear a swimsuit. June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County. May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries. March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister’s right to preach on sidewalks. February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages. October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church. July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school. April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating. January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church’s right to run “anti-Santa” ads in Boston subways. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/119 "2005-10-07T00:28:49Z")
Thanks for the list. Truly. I’ll think twice before I’m so quick to judge them in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924/120 "2005-10-07T00:53:54Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d have to make distinctions – if you’re just talking about programming code, I agree, it’s a mistake to grant it copyright protection. But if you’re talking about real creative output, like what you actually see on the screen in a meticulously crafted computer game or a novel, then I don’t think the public has or should have an unfettered right. What if I was to re-publish, say, _The Nanny Diaries_, for example, leaving everything the same except for making minor changes that made the narrator a virulent anti-Semite and racist, either because it amuses me or because I want to see more books with racist characters and I can’t be bothered to write one from scratch? I don’t think creative works should be freely available as a “tool” for people to use how they wish in this manner. I take exception to your claim that programs aren’t “creative output” ([demos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene) are a huge counterexample), and as for that hypothetical, I see no problem with it - as long as you don’t commit fraud by claiming your changes were written by McLaughlin and Kraus, or claiming you wrote the entire book yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aclu-good-and-bad/324924.md?page=7)