In response to people questioning me above; I had a post all written and ready to post disagreeing with you, but then I realised actually my objection to the death penalty applies equally here - it’s a one-way thing, with no chance to take back a mistake. If we accidentally arrest and lock up an innocent person, and they believe that they cannot make up for their inability to practice their religion enough to save themselves from whatever fate now awaits them, that’s arguably much worse a fate than simply dying.
As an atheist, of course, I don’t believe that what they think will happen will happen, and the anguish alone is not enough to make me feel compassion for those who knew the risks and chose to defy them anyway - but as I accept I could be wrong, it would potentially be just as bad. So I give.
We don’t have “separation of church and state”. We have an establishment clause, but we also have free exercise clause, and they have to be balanced against each other. So far as I know, being encarcerated does not strip one of his free exercise rights.
I see no reason that the prison shouldn’t make “reasonable” accommodations for prisoners’ religious requirements, so long as there is not a threat to the overall security of the place. The problem with Muslim prayers is that the times to pray change a little bit every day. I don’t think it’s reasonable for the prison to have to shift its meal times every day, but if they can be set up to avoid the prayer times altogether, then they should be.
well sometimes it appears that way since they nit-pick so much about what I think are irrelevant reasons… like when they file suits against christian prayer in public places. “They have yet to challenge any Muslim prayers that have now been mandated by many California public schools. For the ACLU, Islam is allowed but, Christianity is forbidden.” (I just did a search for aclu, suits against christianty and came across this…)
And that is the perception of many. What are you going to do, that’s just the way some people perceive things. Just saying…
I just did a search for ‘aclu, lawsuits against christianity’… yeah there were a lot of links, but I don’t think you would want to view any of them since they’re mostly from christian right groups. I mean, what would you expect?
That’s exactly my point. It’s all propganada. The ACLU does not target Christianity. It does not file “lawsuits against Christianity.” It files civil suits against the government. My other thread is probably a better place to pursue this, though.
As an atheist, yes, the anguish alone does make me feel compassion. If we toss a blindfolded guy out of a helicopter, is our compassion for his anguish in knowing his fate in any way mitigated by the fact that we could see that the chopper was only 3 feet off the ground?
As has already been noted, it’s one thing to tell a guy that he can’t have sex with his wife, shoot pool in the bar or watch HBO. It’s another to make him believe that he will suffer an eternity of pain and torment because he robbed a liquor store.
I’ve always been curious… if I found a religion which says it is morally wrong and puts me in danger of bad things if I’m imprisoned against my will, am I allowed to go free instead of going to jail? And since my religion says the only way I can expunge this shamre is to have drugs in prison, can I require the government to provide, say, crack cocaine or speed free of charge? Cuz if you can get peyote in the pen…
No, actually we do. Federal law places the burden of proof on us (the prison) to show why we can’t make reasonable accomodations with the established practices of any religion. Being as praying at set times and fasting during Ramadan are clearly established practices of Islam, we have to show why it would be unreasonably difficult for us to schedule meals around prayer and fasting.
First, you’d have to show it’s an established practice (you’d have to show that not being imprisoned and using drugs is actually an established religious belief and not just a personal opinion). If you were able to do that, we’d then argue that it was impossible for us to reasonably accomodate our mandated duty to keep you in prison and prevent you from breaking laws while acommodating your religious beliefs.
Nope. It’s already well established that religious freedoms do not extend to any behaviors which present a danger to anyone else. That’s why you can’t practice human sacrifice.
This is baffling. Is it really that big of a deal to juggle mealtimes a bit for some prisoners? I suspect the problem is that we just plain don’t like Islam. If they were trying to, I dunno, change hard labor day to Monday instead of Sunday so that Christians could worship, I don’t think we’d be hearing any outrage. Are we really this hateful of Islam?
Yes, there are a lot of converts in prison. A lot of people find Jesus in prison, too. But nobody accuses them of anything, probably because they tend to be white. Islam has a lot to offer a prisoner besides a change in prison routine (I wouldn’t call a changed meal time a “perk”.) It provides meaning, focus, and a connection to history. We tend to view all black Muslims as faking it. But if you look at Africa, you’ll see that there are millions of black Muslims and has been for centuries. Now, of course American blacks arn’t directly connected to that, but people in prison tend to feel a little alienated from the culture that put them in prison, and I don’t see why we wouldn’t expect them to turn their eyes towards Africa.
As for delaying prayer times- yes, it can be done. But it’s strongly preferable not to. For example, all of the busses in my area stop for prayer times even though you are supposed to get pass on praying when you are travelling.
Let’s look at these “outrageous” requests:
[ul]
[li]Don’t serve pork to Muslims- this one is easy enough. We seem to accomodate Jews fine. [/li][li]Give them a clean, dry place to pray- Things should be clean and dry in general, yeah?[/li][li]Delay elective medical procedures until after ramadam- I imagine even in prison you can delay elective medican procedures for any old reason, like your birthday or something. [/li][li]Don’t place toilets and images of living people in the direction of Mecca- This seems like a bit much, but may be something in mind when assigning cells or building new prisons. [/li][li]Let them wash before prayer- washing is essential to prevent the spread of disease in prison situations. The more washing the better.[/li][li]Provide some degree of privacy- Where I live, Muslims who are bathing in the river keep their undies on and kind of scrub under them. I’m sure that’d work. [/li][li]Have religious authority present when searching the Koran- Maybe a bit much. [/li][li]Allow Muslims the day off on Muslim holidays- Do Jews get Passover off?[/li][li]Allow Muslims to wear oil-based perfumes- I don’t think they should be given oil-based perfumes, but if alcohol based ones are accepted I don’t see why oil-based ones shouldn’t be. [/li][/ul]
Now, let’s see what, say the American Family Association would recommend for Christians in prison. I’m sure you’d get something more outrageous than this. And, we need to keep in mind this was targetted at people in Guatanamo Bay, a prison that is almost soley populated by Muslims.
I think you’d be hard pressed to find a prison in the US that doesn’t allow special privileges to Christian inmates. Even those who converted to Christianity in prison get the same privileges They can go to chapel on Sunday, Good Friday, and Christmas. They are allowed to say grace over meals. They’re allowed to keep Bibles and some religious icons. Considering all that, it’s fair to accommodate other religions to the same degree.
I put that badly. It’s not my athiesm that means I don’t really feel compassion, just that which means I think they’re wrong. Of course they’ll feel the anguish depending on what they believe, not what I do.
No, I wouldn’t feel compassion because they knew what the risks were. If they knew what the punishment would be, yet decided to risk doing the crime anyway - then they’ve accepted the possibility that they’ll get that punishment, and ignored it. I don’t feel a need to feel compassion for a person who effectively brought it on themselves, knowingly.
“White culture” did not put them in prison. The fact that they committed a crime is what put them in prison. Hell, I bet some of them were even sentenced by black judges and juries with blacks on them.
Also, I’ll never understand why blacks keep turning to Islam, given that the Arab Muslims were enslaving blacks looooooooong before the first European did, and long before America and American slavery ever existed as an institution.
And for that matter, Africans have long been enslaving Africans and still are today. But the fact still stands that 45% of Africa is Muslim, and Islam has been a major force in Africa since the 7th or 8th century. The great medieval West African empires, the fabled cities of Timbuktu and Djenne, and the fairly modern conquests of the Fulbe and other Islamic ethnicities are a part of Africa’s heritage, and may been seen as part of African-American heritage as well.
As someone living in Muslim Africa, I can tell you that the Islam practiced here has as much to do with Arab slave traders as American Christianity has to do with the ancient Coptics. Islam is practiced by a huge variety of people from Asia to Europe and is by no means merely an Arab thing.