ACLU, the SCotUS, and the 2nd

Maybe the discussion in a GD thread should focus on the merits of ideas, rather than speculations about the beliefs of the participants. Your comment amounts to an ad hominem attack: the reader is invited to discopunt my argument because of your attack on me, not your attack on a particular argument of mine.

This is a logical fallacy.

As it happens, there are some claimed “rights” that are, in my view, crazy-ass liberal ideas, and we’ve discussed many of them in other threads. In this thread, I am the one suggesting the existence of an individual civil right, and my opponents are denying its existence.

Now, perhaps I misread your comment, and you are in fact agreeing with me - sarcastically characterizing the civil right of gun ownership as a “crazy-ass liberal idea” as a means of showing your support for the individual civil right of gun ownership. If so, I believe you could have phrased your comment more cogently, but I am happy, if a bit surprised, to have your support.

We very well might. A more restrictive view, for instance, might hold that the Big One protects political speech specificly, and not speech in general. I don’t think such a position would do great violence to the 1st Amend., since it protects the essential right, free political speech.

I have great sympathy for a position of complete and unhindered free speech, the right to shout “Theater!” in a crowded fire, but don’t necessarily require the 1st Amendment to support that.

As to “virtual” child porn, if there are no actual children involved, i.e., it is computer generated, it would fall in the area of crimes without victims, that is to say, way down the list.

Now that’s consistent.

I don’t agree that’s the direction to go, but I can hardly fault you for a completely consistent approach to the thing.

I will say that the general “liberal” position is not in sync with what you espouse here, though.

Of course not. I’m a radical. Not a liberal. On the conservative wing of the extreme left, we regard liberals as wishy-washy namby-pambys. Not the first to go to the Wall come the Revolution. But definitely eligible for the Jane Fonda Re-Education and Aerobic Workout Camp.

Good lesson for me: try not to buttonhole people into positions. I know I shouldn’t, but I do.

That’s rich, considering your first “contribution” to this thread was to dismiss the ACLU as “liberal”.

one would hope the aclu, being a union that aims to protect civil liberties, would be liberal at least regarding individual rights. the term “liberal” is pretty loaded, though, and i don’t think the aclu does a whole lot of promotion for national healthcare, for instance.

by way of adding to the debate: many people believe those who interpret the second amendment as allowing restrictions on individual firearm ownership because of its conditional nature err by interpreting that part of the constitution strictly while interpreting other parts, such as the first amendment, liberally. i ask, then, why is the second amendment so strictly worded, when other amendments are not, if that was not its aim?

As a card carrying member of the ACLU (and I wish I had more opportunities to mention this in everyday conversation :stuck_out_tongue: ), I have to say it’s a predominately liberal organization.

Not surprising. I don’t believe conservatives, in general, care as much about civil rigts as liberals do. As long as the government stays away from their money and their guns, other peoples liberties are a distant concern.

What attack? You called the ACLU “liberal,” some folks called you on it, and I suggested a possible explaination why you did so. Just tryin’ to be helpful, you know, what with me being a bleedin’ heart and all. :slight_smile:

Don’t forget God.

But the ACLU does seek to protect the civil rights of all points of the political spectrum. They fought for and won the right for neo-Nazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood in Skokie, Illinois. They have gone to court in support of religious rights.

Saying that the ACLU is a “liberal” organization is an insult to conservatives who value Constitutional rights.

Not everyone in the ACLU agrees about the 2nd Amendment. Bricker, you probably draw the line somewhere yourself. Does the 2nd Amendment mean that individual citizens have the right to own nuclear arms?

Good lord. Are you seriously contending that it is inaccurate to characterize the ACLU as a generally liberal organization?

Frankly, that claim refutes itself; it requires no serious rebuttal by me.

No. I have no trouble in parsing “arms” as “personal arms.” The right is an individual, personal right.

Try this on for size:

Liberals and Libertarians, as groups, tend to be more concerned and outspoken about the protection of individual rights than are some elements of the fragmented Conservative bloc. They also tend to take a much broader view of what constitutes a “right” than most Conservatives. (See dozens of threads arguing Living Constitution v. Strict Construction.) The ACLU, as a corporate body, tends to espouse the Liberal standard of what constitutes a right, and the importance of defending them. Thus far, Bricker is on target.

Nonetheless, many Conservatives of varying stripes also feel strongly about the defense of individual rights – and in fact some of them believe that many Liberal shibboleths are in fact deprivatory of rights which they cherish. They tend to take varying stances with regard to the ACLU – those strongly in favor of rights-defense being supportive of it and trying to reform its perspective to incorporate their views as well, and those which find Liberalism to advocate depriving of rights they value opposing the ACLU as a largely-liberal group.

Me, I’m a pragmatic libertarian with a sense that there is a corporate social responsibility, which makes me generally supportive of Liberal principles. And I hold to a not-quite-absolutist view with regard to the entire Constitutional complexus of guarantees of rights.

Poly, your presence is requested here. If you’d be so kind. Your wisdom could certainly help out on the social program side of things.

Because it was settled long ago. See United States v Cruikshank and United States v Miller. You might as well ask why the Court doesn’t revisit abortion rights.

Newsflash people: Cecil is human. And on the 2nd Amendment, he is dead wrong. What part of US v Miller didn’t you get?

From speakout.com

No, the NRA is dedicated to the Second Half of the Second Amendment only. The NRA does not quote the first half since it is contrary to their agenda.

Why doesn’t the Court revisit Bowers v. Hardwick?

Well, they did.

Kinda my point there, Bob.

Does the OP see the 2nd ammendment as allowing any American to keep any kind of arms (cannons, RPGs, 5 tons of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil, antrhax spores, nuclear bombs)? If not, then aren’t you opposed to a liberal interpretation of the 2nd ammendment and therefore being hypocritical in calling the ACLU hypocritical?

The right to keep and bear arms as historically understood has always been interpreted to mean individual arms; rifles, shotguns and pistols. These are held, and operated, by one person. They are meant to be used against other people.

Machineguns, Rocket Launchers, Grenades, Grenade Launchers, and Weapons of Mass Destruction are meant to be used as area-denial weapons, area-effect weapons, anti-vehicle weapons, and anti-material weapons. Thus, they are ordnance and not “arms.” Armaments /= Arms.

The right to keep and bear arms has never had anything to do with keeping and bearing armaments, I don’t care how many letters they have in common. So please, for the Love of OG, Sweet Zombie Jesus, and Santa, stop with the Straw Man arguments about the NRA advocating the right to keep and bear Nuclear Missiles and Anthrax.
Admittedly, the definitions begin to get hazy when you add in modern arms such a fully-automatic sub-machineguns, and assault rifles. The straight reading of Miller seems to imply that, since those arms are of a type in common use by military and police forces, that they are indeed protected by the 2nd. Amendment, and thus quite legal for any qualifying citizen to keep and bear at their discretion for purposes of being part of a ready, well-regulated militia.

But since the United States no longer relies upon the ordinary citizen militia, there is nothing wrong with administrative regulations prohibiting their ownership to the general population, without a certain qualifying approval process.

Which is what we had for the longest time, until the ATF banned the import and manufacture of any additonal fully-automatic weapons, and froze the registry. Which now goes against the plain reading of Miller and the 2nd. Amendment.

Bob: re-read Miller. The court simpy stated that there was no evidence that a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches bore any semblance to the sort of ordinary arms used by a well-regulated militia, and thus was not protected by the 2nd Amendment.

The court found this way because:

A. It was the Government’s argument;
B. The Defendant (Miller and his attorney) didn’t show up to argue otherwise.

Jack Miller and Frank Layton both disappeared from the face of the earth after their aquital in the District Court in Arkansas. They were probably using aliases anyway. Their lawyer never argued the case any higher than the District Court aquital; he wasn’t paid to.

So you had a gun control happy federal government/political administration arguing a case before a court with zero defense. Sadly, I am told that this is actually quite common.

There is more than ample documentary evidence to show that short-barreled shotguns were and are indeed quite commom in military, para-military and civilian law enforcement use.

And finally, Bob, you are just flat-out wrong about what the NRA has on its websites. The 2nd. Amendment is not quoted at all on their Home page, or on their PVF page, or on their NRA News page, or on their Headquarters page, or on their Free Hunters page.

It is only quoted fully on the ILA page.

Hopefully there will be no need for the SCOTUS to become involved.

Department of Justice