# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/201 "2011-04-07T15:27:54Z")
Wait…how is this voter registration fraud, again? I reproduce **Richard Parker’s** citation to the law below. What part of this indicates “fraud” on the part of ACORN? > [@](#): > > NRS 293.805 Compensation for registration of voters based upon number of voters or voters of a particular party registered. > > 1. It is unlawful for a person to provide compensation for registering voters that is based upon: > (a) The total number of voters a person registers; or > (b) The total number of voters a person registers in a particular political party. > 2. A person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a category E felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130. > (Added to NRS by 1993, 2167; A 1995, 1270; 1997, 235) (I’ve reposted this after the flip because I don’t want **Bricker** to overlook it.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/202 "2011-04-07T15:28:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You said: > > “Can’t point to a single instance of that with me, Chuckles. I have readily admitted both error and ignorance on these boards more times than I care to count.” > > So I pointed to a time where you didn’t. Your convenient I didn’t see it (twice) schtick is reminiscent of a Reganesque “I don’t remember” sort of thing but it is not convincing in the slightest. I’ll leave it to readers to decide which was more likely here. > > Now you move the goalposts suggesting a “single instance” hardly merits mention despite a single instance being your challenge and not mine. > > I will also note this whole thread you started rests on a single instance. > > _“ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong” no longer true_ > > You found ONE instance of “guilt” and base a whole thread around it telling people they can no longer make a claim. > > So, by _your standards_, I found one instance where you did not admit being wrong so therefore you can no longer run around telling people you admit to your errors. > > Your rules counselor, not mine. I can’t decide if it’s stupidity with you, or something more malevolent. 1. I never saw the post. And your evidence to the contrary is that I must have seen it, because I posted later in the thread. Not that I quoted it, refererred to it in any way, hinted at it, joked about it, or anything except that after it was posted, I posted. Genius. I suppose you’re willing to hold yourself to that same rule? You agree you’ve read every post in every thread subsequent to a post of yours? Really? 2. Even if I had seen the post, I don’t agree I was wrong. I didn’t say Scalia was not an originalist, did I? Discussing the particular decision process, I said he was using the principles of textualism. The two schools are not mutally exclusive. So: I don’t even concede that I said anything wrong there at all. Even if I had seen your moronic little pair of posts, it would not have moved me to admit error that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/203 "2011-04-07T15:32:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed. It was foolish of me to leave O’Keefe’s name in the OP quote section. > > But I did it because I thought that if I didn’t, the defense would be, “I was just saying ACORN wasn’t guilty of what O’Keefe accused them of. How convenient, Bricker, to edit out the O’Keefe portion!” and then I’d be backpedaling trying to show that the defense of ACORN was NOT limited to the O’Keefe accusations, but was universal as to all accusations, including voter registration fraud. Then you probably should have said, “James O’Keefe is still full of shit, but apparently the other anti-ACORN types were not”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/204 "2011-04-07T15:35:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right, especially since I have explictly and repeatedly called O’Keefe a scum, said he was a liar, and expressed my utter disdain for him. > > But somehow, that doesn’t register on your radar. I didn’t mention O’Keefe and he was not remotely the only right-winger to excoriate ACORN. Or did you support ACORN’s position and I missed it? My apologies. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, we have at least **Dio** continuing to claim that ACORN is as innocent as a newborn babe. > > And who steps up to say, **Dio** , no, c’mon. ACORN got shafted but they can’t be said to be completely inncocent. Why not admit that they did something illegal? > > **Frank** does. **Bryan Ekers** admits it. > > Did anyone else and I missed it? Me, by dint of quoting and agreeing with **Bryan Ekers**. I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/205 "2011-04-07T15:38:16Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Wait…how is this voter registration fraud, again? > > I reproduce **Richard Parker’s** citation to the law below. What part of this indicates “fraud” on the part of ACORN? > > (I’ve reposted this after the flip because I don’t want **Bricker** to overlook it.) Thanks! Now, you ask an interesting question. Is this going to be one of those “Cite?” games or is it an honest question? > [@](#): > > Among the fake names proseuctors said that were filed by ACORN were Dallas Cowboys Tony Romo, along with other members of the team. From [here.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/) So part of the prosecution’s offer of proof would have been the fradulent voter registrations submitted. But a guilty plea does not admit each and every fact alleged by the prosecution; it just admits guilt to each element of the offense. So I suppose you could argue that ACORN did not technically admit to voter registratgion fraud. But I base my statement on the fact that ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration forms. Are you going to claim that ACORN didn’t do that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/206 "2011-04-07T15:40:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Then you probably should have said, “James O’Keefe is still full of shit, but apparently the other anti-ACORN types were not”. Well, I’ll adopt that with a slight modification: James O’Keefe is still full of shit, but those people that said ACORN violated election registration laws in Nevada were not. Won’t make a difference, but I’ll happily say it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/207 "2011-04-07T15:41:16Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I didn’t mention O’Keefe and he was not remotely the only right-winger to excoriate ACORN. > > Or did you support ACORN’s position and I missed it? My [apologies.Me](http://apologies.Me), by dint of quoting and agreeing with **Bryan Ekers**. I’m just sayin’. I’d like to note that I also explicitly stated that ACORN is legally guilty of whatever the heck they were actually charged with in Nevada. But, to quote Boon in _Animal House_, “Forget it. He’s rolling.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/208 "2011-04-07T15:42:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So part of the prosecution’s offer of proof would have been the fradulent voter registrations submitted. But a guilty plea does not admit each and every fact alleged by the prosecution; it just admits guilt to each element of the offense. [Whitepages.com](http://Whitepages.com) has more than 3 pages of people actually named Tony Romo in Nevada, so I’m not entirely convinced by the Dallas Cowboys bit. Well, unless they actually registered as “Tony Romo of the Dallas Cowboys”, which I doubt. > [@](#): > > Won’t make a difference, but I’ll happily say it. It makes a difference to _me_. Hug? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/209 "2011-04-07T15:45:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I didn’t mention O’Keefe and he was not remotely the only right-winger to excoriate ACORN. > > Or did you support ACORN’s position and I missed it? I said ACORN was getting a raw deal. I said they’ve done a good job when they did their internal review, and that the changes they proposed were sufficient. The two areas I’ve argued hard against were: (1) the claim that Comgress’ action in defunding ACORN was illegal as a Bill of Attainder. People seemed to conflate that with the idea that I supported Congress’ defunding of ACORN. I did not. But it wasn’t illegal, and the argument that it was a Bill of Attainder was weak tea. And (2) that ACORN did nothing illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/210 "2011-04-07T15:48:19Z")
Bricker, would you say that your law firm has done nothing wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/211 "2011-04-07T15:48:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thanks! > > Now, you ask an interesting question. > > Is this going to be one of those “Cite?” games or is it an honest question? > > From [here.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/) > > So part of the prosecution’s offer of proof would have been the fradulent voter registrations submitted. But a guilty plea does not admit each and every fact alleged by the prosecution; it just admits guilt to each element of the offense. > > So I suppose you could argue that ACORN did not technically admit to voter registratgion fraud. > > But I base my statement on the fact that ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration forms. > > Are you going to claim that ACORN didn’t do that? Um…wait, what? ACORN pled guilty to paying people on the basis of number of voter registration forms submitted. _That is the act that is illegal under the Nevada law cited._ The fact that falsified voter registration forms were submitted by workers hoping to increase their amount of payment may go to the _consequences_ of paying workers per form submitted, but I honestly can’t see what relevance it has to _ **the thing that ACORN actually pled guilty to** _. To sum up: the law broken by ACORN prohibited the provision of compensation based on the total number of voters a worker registers. ACORN pled guilty to providing compensation based on the total number of voters a worker registered. ACORN did NOT plead guilty to, and did not commit, voter registration fraud. In short, what the fuck are you talking about, and why are you conflating to completely distinct issues? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/212 "2011-04-07T15:50:27Z")
Okay then. If that is the case then I withdraw my assertion, with genuine apologies. Still pissed about the Craig Kilborn thing though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/213 "2011-04-07T15:51:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thanks! > > Now, you ask an interesting question. > > Is this going to be one of those “Cite?” games or is it an honest question? > > From [here.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/) > > So part of the prosecution’s offer of proof would have been the fradulent voter registrations submitted. But a guilty plea does not admit each and every fact alleged by the prosecution; it just admits guilt to each element of the offense. > > So I suppose you could argue that ACORN did not technically admit to voter registratgion fraud. > > But I base my statement on the fact that ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration forms. > > Are you going to claim that ACORN didn’t do that? Are _you_ claiming that there was listing for “Dallas Cowboy Tony Romo”, “Tony Romo of the Dallas Cowboys” or any variation thereof? As **Really Not All That Bright** has pointed out, there are three pages of Tony Romos in Navada. I wouldn’t mind see a listing of the other supposed fraudulent entries to see how supposedly uncommon _they_ are. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/214 "2011-04-07T15:53:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [Whitepages.com](http://Whitepages.com) has more than 3 pages of people actually named Tony Romo in Nevada, so I’m not entirely convinced by the Dallas Cowboys bit. > [@previous link](#): > > …along with other members of the team. Of course it’s possible for the registering employee to have found a guy named Tony Romo. The odds go down when the same registerant, paid a per-registration fee, claims to have found Tony Romo, Kevin Ogletree, Brandon Williams, and David Buehler. > [@](#): > > It makes a difference to _me_. Hug? Aw, I can never stay mad at you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/215 "2011-04-07T15:57:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are _you_ claiming that there was listing for “Dallas Cowboy Tony Romo”, “Tony Romo of the Dallas Cowboys” or any variation thereof? As **Really Not All That Bright** has pointed out, there are three pages of Tony Romos in Navada. I wouldn’t mind see a listing of the other supposed fraudulent entries to see how supposedly uncommon _they_ are. Seriously? This doesn’t strike you as a bit desperate? The news story says, “..and other members of the team.” The director pleaded guilty. The organization pleaded guilty. But you need to reserve judgement to see what other team members names were used and decide only then? So before I go hunt this down… this will do it for you? If I come back with the information that ACORN submitted registrations in Nevada from one worker for Tony Romo, Kevin Ogletree, Brandon Williams, and David Buehler, you’ll say… what? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/216 "2011-04-07T15:58:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course it’s possible for the registering employee to have found a guy named Tony Romo. The odds go down when the same registerant, paid a per-registration fee, claims to have found Tony Romo, **Kevin Ogletree, Brandon Williams, and David Buehler**. (bolding mine)Are you saying those names were on the list? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/217 "2011-04-07T15:58:56Z")
Your position is rational, but it is not reasonable, it denies proportionality. Reason demands more than simple rationality, reducing complex questions down to a yes/no duality. By the standards of rationality, the little girl who sells lemonade without a license is a criminal: there is a law, she did not obey the law, she is a criminal. That is rational, within the strict semantic bounds of the law. But it is not reasonable. It is not law that is important, it is justice that is important, and the law is the handjob of justice. I know what **Doggyknees** meant when he said ACORN did absolutley nothing wrong, he was exaggerating, provoked by exasperation. I know full well that he did not mean to suggest that ACORN walks in a nimbus of utter innocence that makes angels blush with shame. That is the reasonable intepretation of his words. Rationality is the tool of the reasonable man, it is not his master. A reasonable man might be led astray here, if he were unaware of the fine point of the law. He might fairly assume that since he is paying people to gather registrations, he might fairly offer some incentive, the princely sum of five whole dollars. Point of fact, he cannot, that is against the law. Did he know it was against the law? I’ve seen nothing on that, so I’m going to guess that he didn’t. He likely didn’t think it was any more unreasonable than buying your Little League team a pizza to celebrate a victory. Now, this is a guess on my part, but absent contradictory evidence, I will let it stand. But soft! There is a reasonable solution. Let **Doggyknees** admit to the heinous crime of hyperbole, exaggeration for the sake of rhetorical simplicity. We can then award **Bricker** this victory for his shrewd use of pettifoggery and semantics. I propose that we create a special award, and lay it humbly at his feet, he has no equal when it comes to the use of precision semantics in order to gain a trivial point. I propose that, by popular acclaim, that **Bricke** r is hereby awarded the special title and honorarium of **Ninja of Nitpick**! What say you all? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/218 "2011-04-07T15:59:14Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Bricker, would you say that your law firm has done nothing wrong? When I practiced law, I worked for the public defender’s office. I would not say that they never did anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/219 "2011-04-07T16:00:09Z")
Yes, but those people weren’t named in the article you cited, and it didn’t say the same registrant found all of them, etc. Plus, some of the Cowboys probably actually live in Nevada. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/220 "2011-04-07T16:01:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I know what **Doggyknees** meant when he said ACORN did absolutley nothing wrong, he was exaggerating, provoked by exasperation. I know full well that he did not mean to suggest that ACORN walks in a nimbus of utter innocence that makes angels blush with shame. That is the reasonable intepretation of his words. Really? If he comes back to this thread and agrees that he was exaggerating, then I’m happy. > [@](#): > > There is a reasonable solution. Let **Doggyknees** admit to the heinous crime of hyperbole, exaggeration for the sake of rhetorical simplicity. He won’t. He is quite sincere about his literal assertion being true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=12)